Reverse Patch Diving

[lowviz]

I don't know if I am saying quite the same thing, but different agencies have different philosophies about what it takes to complete a course. For some, the idea is to have the student demonstrate that they have they are competent and safe enough to go out on their own and get the experience it takes to achieve expert status. For others, the certification will not be granted until you have demonstrated expert status, which means you need to be pretty well on your way to expert at the start of class if you want to achieve at at its scheduled end. ...//...

Indeed. My experience is that the higher the course and instructor, the more likely you will be certed to "continue your experiential education" on your own up until the next major waypoint.

The more primary skills will get you a cert that validates that you were able to demonstrate said skills in an appropriate manner to a qualified observer (instructor) at some period in your dive history.

...//... Now here's an interesting question; let's say I pay my old PADI instructor $400 for private mentoring, but it's not a formal course. Let's say I have some sort of problem and drown on one of the training dives. Does his liability insurance cover him if my wife sues?

Richard.

In this country anybody can sue anybody else for anything. You have to pass the test of frivolous lawsuit. Pay enough and you can drive a crack in "frivolous" that you could sail the Queen Mary through.

 

[doctormike]

What I was alluding to was that many people associate mentoring with a strong information relationship, sort of an 'alliance,' between a senior, more accomplished person of standing in an industry or organization, and a junior, less accomplished person of lower standing in same. The senior individual, for reasons such as friendship and altruism, chooses to take a specific junior 'under his wing' for instruction, coaching and advocacy to facilitate the junior's rise to power, competence, achievement, etc...

The idea of paying somebody to be a mentor would sound like paying somebody to be your friend, viewed from that perspective.

I'm not saying there's no other form of mentorship; I've heard of organizations trying to bureaucratically create mentorship 'programs' to enhance success rates for targeted special interest groups (e.g.: women, minorities).

But unless you have good personal knowledge of a given instructor, then you're putting significant trust in him to teach you what you need or want to know, in an open ended form with no course standards to define minimum content. Assuming you're willing to pursue training without even knowing just what's going to be taught.

Now here's an interesting question; let's say I pay my old PADI instructor $400 for private mentoring, but it's not a formal course. Let's say I have some sort of problem and drown on one of the training dives. Does his liability insurance cover him if my wife sues?

Richard.

I guess I see your point, but I think that you are overthinking this. Coaching is so common in so many other activities, I'm not sure why you are reading more into my suggestion than I intended.

Mentoring implies that someone is helping a person advance in an organization, is developing a long term relationship, which often goes from a student-teacher relationship to a relationship between colleagues. This is what I do with my residents, and it's a big, long term commitment. I'm not talking about that.

I'm certainly friendly with Wayne, but I'm primarily his customer and his student, and there is no way that I would expect him to spend an hour in the water with me and another hour before and after the dive for free. He's a professional, diving is his full time career. This has nothing to do with altruism, I have no plans of rising to power within the scuba industry, I'm sticking with my day job (Wayne, if you are reading this and want to learn how to dig out earwax, I'm sure that we can work something out).

I'm just suggesting that if you know an instructor that you respect, or with whom you have had good training in the past, it's not a bad idea to ask him or her to do a session or two of open ended coaching - especially if you are having difficulties with trim, or buoyancy, or whatever like another poster mentioned. I don't understand why that wouldn't be valuable even though you don't have a formal course outline ahead of time.

I know that a LOT of instructors do tune up classes in this area, and I'll bet that they are covered by their pro insurance, even if they aren't teaching a class. But I'm not an instructor, so I could't really give you the details on that.

 

[DaleC]

When I swam long distance I hired an instructor to observe me to increase my kick performance. No course, just a 1 hr critique to improve my overall speed.
I've actually thought of doing the same with a competent instructor, to help with the back kick, which is the one kick I lack skill with. Just an hour (or two) private tutoring, no course or badges.

 

[waterpirate]

A lot of mentoring goes on in my little world, on the boat benches on the 3 hour ride off shore. It occurs because if a diver is new to us or the offshore diving, selfishness drives the wheel. We do not want to have to fill out that pesky CG or osha paperwork..

I could counter the above disscussion by simply stating the collection of many patches, gives collectors a bombastic attitude in regard to accepting any mentoring or advice that is aimed at helping them, not making the dispensor of said informations ego any bigger. People, especially on SB refuse to accept the premise " when in Rome, do as the Romans " or you may find yourself in a world of hurt depending on the dive.

Payment for mentoring does not have to enter the realm of legality either. Beer, lunch, dinner, ect. is commonly accepted. The role of the mentor is also not to replace formal instruction, but to give assistance to the punter, and lead them to the water. It is up to the punter to drink the water, and seek the appropriate liscenses for the diving they want to engage in.
Eric

 

[boulderjohn]

Now here's an interesting question; let's say I pay my old PADI instructor $400 for private mentoring, but it's not a formal course. Let's say I have some sort of problem and drown on one of the training dives. Does his liability insurance cover him if my wife sues?

That's a good question.

A couple of years ago another instructor (in another state) and I designed a workshop to teach buoyancy, trim, frog kick, back kick, etc. It wasn't quite a forml curriculum--just an outline of skills to be covered in several sessions. We compared notes with each other before embarking on this experiment. He immediately got some advice about liability which, as a former attorney, he took very seriously. That workshop became a formal class with a PADI-approved curriculum. That way if something happens, we can go into the courtroom with an agency backing saying that what we were doing was reviewed by experts and found to be a safe and effective instructional practice. Without that, we would be on our own to show that what we did was safe. I think we would have been OK in either case, but having an approved course curriculum certainly helps.

Payment for mentoring does not have to enter the realm of legality either. Beer, lunch, dinner, ect. is commonly accepted.

Any payment whatsoever--including beer or lunch--puts the Mentor into the legal status of an instructor. If you are paying a friend in any way to teach you about scuba, and if that friend is not a certified and insured instructor, then that friend is taking on a liability risk.

 

[drrich2]

Coaching is so common in so many other activities, I'm not sure why you are reading more into my suggestion than I intended.

I'm not, and I don't disagree with your main idea. I'm trying to speak to possible contributors that make the 'training without a specific formal certification track course' approach less common in diver education than it might otherwise be.

I know that a LOT of instructors do tune up classes in this area, and I'll bet that they are covered by their pro insurance, even if they aren't teaching a class. But I'm not an instructor, so I could't really give you the details on that.

BoulderJohn's input on that was interesting. A Scuba Instructor is a recognized professional, and I suspect for practical purposes might be held to a higher standard than a non-pro. dive buddy mentor, especially if money was paid for professional training. If an instructor signs off on the student in a formal course, then there's a paper trail that the student demonstrated an 'approved' body of knowledge and set of skill proficiencies; in the even of a bad outcome, such a paper trail is nice to have.

Doesn't mean you will automatically lose a case if you don't have it, or win if you do, but it creates a superficially credible standard you can say you've met. Outside of a formal training program, and considering that lawsuits are often filed way after the alleged offense, when most of what happened is not remembered, an instructor doing training without formal course structure and materials could be reduced to testifying 'Well, I'm a good instructor, I only do good training, and although I don't remember what we went over in the lake 3 years ago, I am confident that whatever I did was up to standards.'

I am not a fan of our litigious society.

Richard.

 

[rivers]

Professional coaching seems to be quite a popular thing in UK diving. I know many instructors who do a 1-2 day coaching session either with an individual or a small group (no more than 3) of divers. They work on all manner of things, from trim and buoyancy control, line laying, fundies prep, or just as a confidence builder because someone has had something happen and they **** themselves. I've read reports on another dive forum from new-ish divers to quite experienced divers about their experience with coaching and why they did it, what they got from it, etc. It's not a bad things.

 

[drrich2]

It's my understanding that in the U.K., the club system under BSAC is a dominant force in scuba training. I suspect it would be conducive to the approach Doctor Mike brought up, and a lot of people seem to like it. For whatever reason, BSAC doesn't seem to have 'caught on' much in the U.S. I'd like to see it catch on, not to replace what we have but to offer more options.

Richard.

 

[rivers]

It's my understanding that in the U.K., the club system under BSAC is a dominant force in scuba training. I suspect it would be conducive to the approach Doctor Mike brought up, and a lot of people seem to like it. For whatever reason, BSAC doesn't seem to have 'caught on' much in the U.S. I'd like to see it catch on, not to replace what we have but to offer more options.

Richard.

BSAC is not a professional organisation, it is the club system and they do not charge for training/coaching. They also seem to be losing a bit of ground to PADI and SSI at the moment. You might have to buy the instructor a bacon sandwich and cup of tea, maybe give them a lift, but that's it. I am talking professional instructors, who charge for a day or weekend's coaching. They are not BSAC instructors, but from GUE, IANTD, TDI, and there are probably a few who teach for PADI or SSI as well.

 

[doctormike]

I'm not, and I don't disagree with your main idea. I'm trying to speak to possible contributors that make the 'training without a specific formal certification track course' approach less common in diver education than it might otherwise be.

Got it, that makes sense...!

Interesting discussion about the liability. My assumption was that if you held a pro card (DM, AI or Instructor), you were potentially liable at a higher level for an accident even if you were just buddying up with someone, let alone teaching. I also assumed that - since lots of instructors seem to do these coaching classes - that they were covered by the same policy for any teaching that they did, not only if it was in the form of a recognized class through an agency.

Now it's possible that all these people were unknowingly putting themselves at risk, I don't know. But if an instructor really was not covered by their insurance if they were teaching outside a recognized class, then that would probably get around and no one would do coaching...

In the world of medicine, a doctor-patient relationship (DPR) exists if you provide advice and the other person acts on that advice. That means if (1) there is an injury, (2) there is a DPR, and (3) there was negligence in the form of the doctor deviating from an accepted standard of care, you can be successfully sued. And - relevant to this discussion - you don't need to charge someone to establish a DPR.