Reverse kick

[Coztick]

My sm instructor had me first start in the pool, belly inches from the bottom.
Full extention, roll knees outward and, pull out and back with the top of the fin, feeling it "on the top tips of my toes" as the Chairman put it.
Being inches from the bottom kept my knees from dropping and provided immediate visual feedback, both back and any forward.
Trying on my own, prior to training, I found it hard to maintain good trim while attempting to reverse.
Im sure I looked ridiculous trying.
I would say that if you can frog kick then you can reverse. It's the same but backwards.

Cheers, Kevin

 

[rongoodman]

I first learned to use the top of my fins as the propelling surface, and then the sides. They are two different techniques. Using the sides has several advantages, so it is the method I use now. You need to have decent sidewalls on the fins, though--you can't do it with some fins.

What are the advantages of using the sidewalls? It doesn't seem like you'd get the feedback you do from using the larger surface area of the tops.

 

[АлександрД]

I`d already described here my way, how to FEEL (not to teach) you skills of back kick (reversed kick)
First - about frog kick efficiency:

You would like to have nice or effective frog kick?
In case of effective - you can use very simple way. (with scuba or holding breath)

Put one (or two, when you be more powered in propulsion) finger on the pools wall (underwater)
Start to make frog kick.
You will start to feel force on your finger. As more big this force - as more efficient your fins stroke.
THAN when you turning back your fins into initial position.... As less your finger will turn away from the wall - as more efficient your back (return) stroke.

This measure can easy estimate your frog kick efficiency.

Than you can use sucker disk

When you use snorkel - you can get two bad things:
in one case - you can slap by fins over water surface.
Other - you can get bad practice to lower your fins. But for the frog kick it is more correct to hold your fins above line of your body.

You can hold, why not. E.g. my friend use that device, when he teach students for neutral bouyoancy

But when you just touch the wall - it is more difficult and sensitive.

Next - you have to look video, how other divers make back kick.

for back kick training -
1. use good, not shaking on your feets, fins. It should be fixed on your legs very strongly, (but not to squize you).
2. Start to feel water resisting. When you move your fin - your leg should feel all resist forces. Also you can feel forces, moved to parasite side, not than you wish.
3. for backkick - in your fins movement, you shold turn your fins till start to feel greater resists of water, than just shaking in fins plane, side to side. When you starts to feel resists - remember how you turning your legs and feets.

for another swimming trainings - look to that movie of Denis Khoroshko - one of our young, but famouse scuba swimming instructors. He makes special course - Pilotage in diving.

Than you need to find big mirror near the floor.
Lay down on the floor, and try to repeat fins movements on the air.

Than you can try to do it under water, near the pools wall, using sucker disk or any other tools, like ladder step.

Also you can try to train back kick withot fins!
It is more easy, and not very correct, but you can start to feel, that you can do it!
Finless diving.

and in the end you be able to make reverse movement even with freediving fins!

 

[BlueTrin]

Use a kickboard. Makes all the difference.

Bathing suit, kickboard, after a while add booties and fins, pool. Toodle around the pool frog kicking forwards, holding the kickboard out in front of you. Go slow. Now try to reverse engineer the frog. It really is the side of your foot/fin. It also has a kick/recoil cycle like the kick/glide of the forward frog. It’s nowhere near as fast or powerful, but it very useful.

Thanks Marie and BabyDuck, will see if there is a kickboard in the pool next time I can get some time for training.

For my next 2/3 pool sessions, I’ll have a rescue class but I’ll be able to use the pool on my own after that.

I`d already described here my way, how to FEEL (not to teach) you skills of back kick (reversed kick) ...

Thanks for the great videos, they are really good. I never thought of frog kicking while on my back, I’ll have to try this too.

Thanks for all the other posts too, I think I’ll be able to do better next time I’ll give it a go.

 

[boulderjohn]

What are the advantages of using the sidewalls? It doesn't seem like you'd get the feedback you do from using the larger surface area of the tops.

I saw a video of that method while I was in a motel room in California, where I was staying with a student whom I had just taught to reverse kick and helicopter turn using the larger surface area of the tops. I was as incredulous as you seem to be, but my student was a college professor who (of course) knew the equation for propellant force. That is where I learned that velocity is squared before multiplying. When we then went out and tried it, we saw how important that is.

The physical motion required to use the fin tops is unnatural and awkward. As a result, it is s l o w. In contrast, the physical motion required to move the sidewalls outward is natural and easy. It can be done quickly. You will see this especially when you want to adjust your body position in the water via a partial helicopter turn--you will only need a simple flick of the foot. For the reverse kick, start with your knees thoroughly bent, extend the legs s l o w l y with the fin tips pointed into the water, flick them rapidly outward, then pull them back slowly to reload. It works surprisingly well, and it is much easier to learn than using the fin tops.

There is a second advantage. Using the fin tops points the fin tips down and directs thrust downward. Using the sidewalls is much better in a silty environment.

 

[BlueTrin]

I saw a video of that method while I was in a motel room in California, where I was staying with a student whom I had just taught to reverse kick and helicopter turn using the larger surface area of the tops. I was as incredulous as you seem to be, but my student was a college professor who (of course) knew the equation for propellant force. That is where I learned that velocity is squared before multiplying. When we then went out and tried it, we saw how important that is.

The physical motion required to use the fin tops is unnatural and awkward. As a result, it is s l o w. In contrast, the physical motion required to move the sidewalls outward is natural and easy. It can be done quickly. You will see this especially when you want to adjust your body position in the water via a partial helicopter turn--you will only need a simple flick of the foot. For the reverse kick, start with your knees thoroughly bent, extend the legs s l o w l y with the fin tips pointed into the water, flick them rapidly outward, then pull them back slowly to reload. It works surprisingly well, and it is much easier to learn than using the fin tops.

There is a second advantage. Using the fin tops points the fin tips down and directs thrust downward. Using the sidewalls is much better in a silty environment.

Is it kinetic energy ?
What is kinetic energy?

 

[TMHeimer]

Anyone here reverse kick with split fins? I've heard it can be done. I watched videos and gave it a try, but pretty half-heartedly. I haven't had a real reason to go backwards yet.

 

[Johanan]

This is how I learned it:

0. Start from the "skydiver's" position, horizontal trim.
1. Look up, straight forward. Lift your arms up, align them with your cheeks or ears. Straighten your legs. Lock the knee joints straight. Lower your feet a bit. ;
2. Turn the tips of the fins otward, like Charlie Chaplin;
3. Open your legs like scissors.
4. Return to the "skydiver's" position and try to catch the momentum.
5. Repeat the sequence.

Take in account that your backward movement may start with some third kick.
You may practise this movement laying on the floor first.

 

[boulderjohn]

Anyone here reverse kick with split fins? I've heard it can be done. I watched videos and gave it a try, but pretty half-heartedly. I haven't had a real reason to go backwards yet.

Yep. I have two experiences, and those experiences are quite instructive.

In the first case, I was doing a scuba refresher class for a father and his teenage son. They had their own equipment, and as they started to dress out, I looked at the son's fins--Atomic split fins extra large--and told him they weren't his. He insisted they were. I told him that he may have walked away from his last dive with those fins, but after he did, some really big guy left with a pair of fins hopelessly too small for him. Sure enough, they were ginormous--he could not possibly wear them. I gave him my fins, which were just a little too big for him, and I wore his Atomic splits, which were so big on me that the spring strap barely touched my heel. When I instruct, I do a lot of back finning as I move around while facing the students, and I was amazingly able to do it with the Atomic splits. I just had to reach down every now and then and put the spring strap back in place. (I used the front of the fin technique rather than the sidewall technique.)

The second experience was not actually me but a student. She was taking a class introducing advanced techniques, and she showed up with splits of a brand I cannot recall. I told her I did not think she could do the reverse kick with the splits, but she wanted to try. It was obvious that it would not work--ever. When she pointed the fins back properly and extended the legs, the fins flopped over, creating too much resistance. When she made the power stroke, there was simply nothing going on. They just flopped around.

I concluded that the difference was the stiffness. The Atomics I had were surprisingly stiff, and they worked reasonably well. The others were as floppy as Hell, and there was no way in the world you could do anything other than a gentle flutter with them.

 

[Neilwood]

I think stiffness of fins is a huge element of backkicking effectively.

I originally bought Mares Xstreams which are a great fin for going forward with flutter kick (the very flexible middle of the fin effectively creates a funnel of water backwards). They are horrible to try to manoeuvre in though - trying to do a helicopter turn or back kick (even to slow momentum) is very difficult.

Then bought Hollis F1s - a lot firmer which requires a bit more power from the muscles going forward. Manoeuvring is a whole lot easier though due to the stiffness. I can turn easily and even backkick slowly.