Reverse Kick

[Blue Sparkle]

Michael,

Sorry if I'm trying your patience. I have watched that video, and I do see that her fins are in the opposite orientation for the propulsion phase than they are in the forward frog kick (parallel to ground vs. perpendicular). That surprised me for some reason, and then when I read "scooping with top of feet" it made me wonder if some people did hold their fin blades perpendicular to the "ground" (like you would in a forward frog kick).

Anyway, I will poke my nose back out of the thread - thanks for your input. My main problem seems to be something else anyway (? maybe ?), and I'm trying to find someone to work with me on it in person.

Blue Sparkle

 

[aquaregia]

Are you doing the shrimp dance where you move back a bit then forward a bit, and then slightly come up at the back and after a few strokes you don't go backwards at all anymore? Or just the back-then-forward without the change in trim? The second problem was one I had that I fixed by changing the angle of my fins during the reset phase. Almost scooplike, but more like an anti-scoop. That one took in-person help.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Hi Aquaregia,

I have a feeling I may be doing the shrimp dance!

What happens is my first back kick seems great, and I am reminded how totally convenient this stroke is. Second one... sometimes good, sometimes not... Then it kind of goes kaput: When I next try to do the "loading phase" I feel off balance, trim-wise, and then go "leg light" and start drifting head down/legs up. I don't mean that I actually ascend any great amount, but things start heading (or should I say "footing") in that direction. Then it's kind of like my feet get "stuck" up close to my butt, and I can't load the next stroke without totally losing it, if that makes sense.

I have a feeling it has something to do with my legs not staying flat from my torso to my knee. In other words, I think my knees start to drop when I do the loading phase. But it's like otherwise I start to go "leg light." This may not actually be specifically only to do with my back kick, because I tend to trim out "leg light" all the time, but I can normally keep it (and my general posture) under control. I seem to lose that when I'm trying to back kick.

I've recently picked up a Kydex backplate, so it will be interesting to see how/if things change with less weight on my upper back (as compared to the stainless plate) and more lower down, toward my hips (whether it be by using a steel tank or simply by putting more weight on my belt or lower). Of course then I will lose my mental "excuse" for not being able to back-kick, too, unless that fixes it

Blue Sparkle

 

[aquaregia]

There's a post by TS&M somewhere... I was doing the shrimp dance and her post set me straight. Basically my trim was funky and I was compensating by arching my back. Dropping knees is I think symptomatic of the same thing, and I think the resolution involved my butt. I'm in no way an expert on this though.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I hear what you're saying. The thing is, why does this posture error occur only (or most obviously) when I'm trying to back-kick?

I think I should probably just head to the PNW for some lessons :cool2: Of course that would bring a drysuit into the picture :mock horror:

 

[Scuba_Noob]

Thanks, MRTdiver and all others for your tips. By the way, I'm using ScubaPro Jet Fins.

Yes, I've found that my feet are generally a bit lower than my torso (maybe due to the BCD style), and I've been shifting weight around to improve the trim. Hopefully with your suggestions, I can improve. Dove today and succeeded a little. That's a start.

 

[g1138]

Blades parallel or perpendicular to bottom/surface when propelling?

From what I am reading here, they should be parallel to bottom/surface, which seems to be the opposite to a forward frog kick propulsion phase. That's my confusion. Over and above whether or not I *can* back kick... I have wondered which way I was *supposed* to be doing it in terms of blade orientation on propulsion phase.

Blue Sparkle

I think you're getting your orientations confused. All specialty kicks such as Modified flutter, Helicopter turn, Frog Kick, and Back Kick:
They all begin in the standard textbook GUE hover position:
See linked video below:
[video=youtube;JlUjnXBzNlc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlUjnXBzNlc[/video]

In a textbook example, the soles of the feet should be parallel with the surface of the water and with your stomach. This is to prevent silting the roof in an overhead environment. In the case of recreational OW diver such as us we can get away with a little variation. More or less you're looking to keep the tips of your fins from pointing straight towards the surface or the ground.

Pay close attention to MRTdiver's linked video. Of all the youtube videos I've seen, it has the closest shot of a diver performing a back kick. Study the details closely and try to match it. That can at least get you started until you can find a mentor to get in the water with you.

As for being trimmed feet down, I find that w/o a Bp/W I always end up feet down. I'm using a back inflate BC right now and I'd have to shift weight drastically to my head to prevent myself from going vertical.
To prevent this I just fin lightly. I also use SP Jet fins and think lightly finning would allow you to maintain horizontal trim as well.
Here's the best example I could find to describe the type of finning I do:
[video=youtube;8sqHa1kLLks]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sqHa1kLLks[/video]
(Yes, yet another video)

 

[TSandM]

I'd practice with fins, and forget practicing the motions with bare feet. You're training for the wrong muscle memory by taking the fin's weight off your feet.

I wouldn't argue with this, if I hadn't watched Peter absolutely master the kick in about three weeks, where it took me and my practice buddy over six months. I've also watched our snorkeling students moving effectively backwards in one pool session.

It was my understanding that GUE went to teaching the kick without fins for a while, at least. I know Steve made me do it with my gear on without fins, which doesn't work very well because it puts you so badly out of balance.

 

[Rhone Man]

I hummed and hawed about chipping in, because the last thing I want to do is confuse the OP, but I have never been a big fan of the "traditional" back kick, which I find slow and tiring. But when I was younger (before I had even heard of kicking techniques) I sort of invented my own based upon a game we used to play in pools when I was a kid. The way I like to reverse whilst diving is keep my body broadly flat and turn both outwards, so that looked at from above my fins would form a "T" with my body. I then just "roll" my ankles, using the face of the fin to push water towards my head and rotating it like an oar on the reverse part of the roll towards my feet (you can't get it exactly flat, but close enough is good enough). I strongly recommend that people don't try this in environments which are likely to silt out.

It sure as heck 'aint DIR. But it works for me.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I think you're getting your orientations confused. All specialty kicks such as Modified flutter, Helicopter turn, Frog Kick, and Back Kick:
They all begin in the standard textbook GUE hover position

Sorry if I'm being confusing. Here is what I mean:

1) Forward frog kick, propulsion portion (they are calling it "power stroke"). Fin blades are perpendicular to the bottom/surface:



2) As compared to this, showing the "power stroke" of the back kick. Here the fin blades are "opposite" to the frog kick in that they are parallel to the bottom/surface: (It's not labelled on screen, but I took this screen shot right in the middle of her power stroke.)



I didn't mean to completely drag the thread away from the OP - sorry OP :blush: It's just that I had this question even before, and then reading this thread my interpretation of some back-kick descriptions (which may have been wrong) made it sound like the fin blades would be perpendicular, like they are in the forward kick (maybe I mis-understood "scooping").

I also don't mean to belabor the point, but I figured that maybe a couple of photos would at least show what I was blabbing on about. I just wondered if there were two options for the power stroke of the back kick. If so, one would look like the second photo, and the other would be more like a "backwards" version of the first photo, wherein you were making the power stroke with the top of your fin blades, and they would be perpendicular to the bottom/surface (or, at least, you would be "trying" for that).

Blue Sparkle