Reverse Kick

[ferris213]

BTW, I have no problem back propelling myself in a pool on the surface (I tried it while swimming), but when I do it diving I tend to start rising, feet first.

Blue Sparkle

I had the exact same problem. I could go backwards ok, but after four strokes I was flapping about on the surface of the pool!

My instructor suggested focusing on a point on the wall of the pool and using that as a depth reference. It helped a lot, though I'm still pretty rubbish at back kicks.

 

[MRTdiver]

Hi Scuba_Noob,
So I’ve been thinking about this post for some time. First off I think that we need to address some fundamentals. First is Gear selection and the second is Trim. FYI this post is hyperlinked throughout.

1. So I read your profile and you indicate that you have a jacket style BC and split fins. BTW it’s good that you outlined your gear in your profile. This is not the ideal gear you want for advanced propulsion techniques. The jacket BC will tend to give you a head up & feet down trim position. You want to be horizontal in the water column, like the fish. A proper backplate with wing (BP/W) will fix this. See gear example here (DGE). Though it will take time to get comfortable in.
And the split fins you have while excellent at what their designed for (essentially flutter kick) are not so good at what you’re trying to achieve here.

They need to be stiff, but not necessarily heavy. It works like a charm with OMS Slipstreams or the Dive Rite fins.

As Ron mentioned you may want to invest in a stiffer blade, non split-fin type. See here (DGE). Many fin designs are poor if you wish to frog kick or use almost any of the adv. techniques preferred by experienced divers (e.g. Cave, photography).

2. Trim: Now with the correct gear what you should focus on is the fundamentals of proper trim. Once you have this down pat then everything else will be easier to achieve. What I’m also alluding to is that there are no short cuts.
[video=youtube;JlUjnXBzNlc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlUjnXBzNlc&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

It is vital to keep in trim. Head up, Back arched, Knees up, Feet flat. Poor trim will kill an effective back kick or drag you up or down rather than backwards. Too many people drop their head when concentrating which puts them out of trim. If you find it difficult to remember to do this; face a wall or a piece of wreck and keep it in view as you try to move backwards away from it. (This tip from UK DIR guys)

I've been slightly confused about which way to have my feet on the propulsion part of the stroke, and reading this I'm still unclear. For example, TSandM mentions using the tops of your feet like a scoop. The way I visualize that, it would be the tops of my fins that would be pushing the water, i.e. the flat part of my fin would be perpendicular to the bottom of the sea. On the other hand g1138 says the trick is to use the sidewalls of the fins for propulsion, for that I visualize my fins being oriented with the blade surface parallel to the bottom of the sea. Am I misunderstanding? Or are there two different ways to do it?

Yeah, just keep the fin blades flat, parallel with the bottom.

My instructor suggested focusing on a point on the wall of the pool and using that as a depth reference. It helped a lot, though I'm still pretty rubbish at back kicks.

It is essential to keep your head up. And looking at something in front of you helps to keep it up. When you drop your head you will tend to back up towards the surface. BTW g1138 has an excellent post above(#5), if you notice in his first video (12 sec into it) the GUE instructor (Clare Gledhill) tips her head up in a motion that the observer should note.

I know many tech. divers that cannot back kick or care to. Proper technique is everything. For future training you may be interested in seeking out some technical DIR guys like were depicted in the vids (GUE, UTD), since you’re getting into advance skill sets.

best, Michael T.

 

[TSandM]

Michael T has a good point that I forgot . . . Back kicking is heavily dependent on your trim, and on your posture. The knees have to be a little bent, and the fin blade pretty much parallel to the bottom, for the kick to work.

Blue Sparkle, what you THINK you are doing, and what you are actually DOING in a kick can be quite different. Wearing fins, it's pretty much physically impossible to rotate your ankles enough to scoop with the top of the fin. But if you have built the motion by thinking that way WITHOUT fins, what you will end up doing is using the side and a little bit of the top for the backward motion.

To me, the back kick ends up feeling almost like a circular motion. If you sit at your desk with your feet off the floor, and start with your soles together as much as you can get them, and then slowly point the toes while flattening the feet, and then evert the ankle and bring the toes up, and then bring the soles together, it gives you a kind of circular feeling, and that's just about what I feel like I am doing when I am kicking backward. But if you film it, it doesn't look that way.

You CAN back kick in almost any fins. I have done it in splits, which are the hardest I've tried. But I think it's almost impossible to LEARN the kick without a nice, stiff paddle fin to give you good proprioceptive feedback.

 

[g1138]

This is a reply directly to Blue Sparkle and ferris21:
When you're swimming on the surface you have to be trimmed feet down to propel yourself with fins (whether backwards or forwards). If you're aren't you're fins break the surface and your kick becomes less effective. So this creates a little hurtle when transitioning to underwater kicks.

The back kick is a bit of both scoop and sidewall propulsion. If you're rising up on your back kick you're either:
1) trimmed head down
2)putting too much propulsion into your scoop
3) you're bending your legs too much at the knee.

OR doing two or all three of the above.

IMO you don't have to focus on keeping your fins parallel with the surface. It is possible to gain a lot of speed with the back kick even if your fins aren't parallel with the surface.
The important concepts are head up, back arched, knees bent, butt clenched.

Get those things down then you can work on trim and feet orientation.

Case in point:
I was trimmed to be heavy on my left side, so had to reposition the height of my feet to maintain an even trim. If you notice my left foot is higher than my right and my feet aren't orientated parallel with the surface.
[video=youtube;gshBP0fyAMM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gshBP0fyAMM[/video]

 

[boulderjohn]

One thing to remember is that the physical actions you are taking are different from anything you have ever done. It will take a long time and a lot of practice before you develop the coordination you need for this. Your legs and feet will want to keep doing something more familiar for a while. Be patient.

The next thing you have to remember is that your fins and muscles want to propel you forward when they are used in their normal way. When you are doing your loading, you are very close to a normal kicking stroke. If you are not extremely careful while loading, you will propel yourself forward. Be very aware of your fin position at that time so that they cut through the water and provide as little push as possible. That is also why several people have emphasized that the loading must be done SLOWLY. If you do it quickly, you will give yourself a forward push.

It takes a lot of practice to master--unless you are a much faster learning than I.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

I'm reading all of this with interest, thanks!

This is a reply directly to Blue Sparkle and ferris21:
When you're swimming on the surface you have to be trimmed feet down to propel yourself with fins (whether backwards or forwards). If you're aren't you're fins break the surface and your kick becomes less effective. So this creates a little hurtle when transitioning to underwater kicks.

Just as a quick note: When I was practicing while pool swimming on the surface, I didn't have fins on - just feet. I just wanted to get a feel for the leg and foot motions first.

 

[g1138]

Just as a quick note: When I was practicing while pool swimming on the surface, I didn't have fins on - just feet. I just wanted to get a feel for the leg and foot motions first.

I'd practice with fins, and forget practicing the motions with bare feet. You're training for the wrong muscle memory by taking the fin's weight off your feet.

I think you'll be able to gain a better feel about where you're moving the water if you practice with fins on the surface. Just trim yourself so your waist is below the water and your head is above. If done right you should move backwards with a little downward pull (not enough to dunk you though).

Imaging your legs and feet pulling you through the water, instead of propelling you. The motions are done slow and fluidly. Just add a little bit more speed when moving from the loading phase to the power stroke.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Well now I'm really hijacking the OP's thread :blush: But thanks for the input.

The reason I piped into the thread was because I'd like to understand in my head what I'm supposed to be doing, and it seemed like I was reading two different descriptions of the propulsion phase. Since that was a question I already had (before this thread), I wanted to clarify:

Blades parallel or perpendicular to bottom/surface when propelling?

From what I am reading here, they should be parallel to bottom/surface, which seems to be the opposite to a forward frog kick propulsion phase. That's my confusion. Over and above whether or not I *can* back kick... I have wondered which way I was *supposed* to be doing it in terms of blade orientation on propulsion phase.

Blue Sparkle

 

[aquaregia]

*deleted, no additional content*

 

[MRTdiver]

Once we have established good trim, as I trust you all have at this point (if not refer to post #12 above)...

1. Begin in prone position with feet flat. Proper trim… legs bent at knees ~90°. And lower legs/feet are also ~90° at ankles (this remains constant)

2. Loading phase: begin to bring feet together forming a V or ship’s bow with the fins and Gently extend lower legs downward. (as Crush underlined)

3. Stroke phase: Pull your fins back up toward your tanks keeping the fins flat. Fins get pulled back and toes point toward the outside

4. Glide: Pull back through the entire range of motion and let yourself soar in reverse for a moment. (Ok maybe soar is too much of a hyperbole)

5. Repeat by letting you legs relax and come back together for step 2 again. Maintaining a continuous fluid motion, again and again until you "arrive."

[video=youtube;LgEkBn35TAE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LgEkBn35TAE#t=12s[/video]
Stop video at ~12 sec in and you can see how the "V" (ship's bow) is made with your fins that I was talking about in step #2. This is how I think of it. However they refer to it as "clapping the soles together."

Blue Sparkle at this point I think it will help to review the above video. Stop it at various points and note fin positions throughout. Thanks to g1138 for pointing out the Merseyside Sub Aqua Club vid.

This thread is perhaps better suited for Adv. Scuba discussions. A person trying this should NOT have buoyancy issues at this stage. And as I tried to explain above (post 12), w/out proper trim this will inevitably be an exercise in futility, but exercise nonetheless.

Enough said, Michael T.