Rescue skills not in OW Course

[BoltSnap]

NAUI MSD is the equivalent to their DM without requiring "demonstration level" of skills, "lecture training", and the "store component".

NAUI's MSD course requires entry level "leadership" knowledge, performance and skill level but without the "teaching" skills. I'd expect that the NAUI MSD course graduate to have diving knowledge and skills at the same level as entry level instructor.

 

[lowflyer]

I think the OW course on an individual basis should be as long as it takes to make the student competent. This won't happen much unless the instructor is very dedicated and/or gets extra pay for the extra time which I think he/she deserves.
I do know one instructor who does this more or less without charging more.

I am not advocating OW students learn Cave or Wreck diving. I was just trying to emphasize that OW courses have to have limits and not have the whole Rescue added to the curriculum.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@TMHeimer

The length of the course is important. In my view, most open water divers are trained to the scuba diver level, but certified at the open water level. I'd like to see the scuba diver course be strengthened a little so that it would appeal to the bucket list divers that make up the bulk of the market.

That said, I wonder how to retain some of those people to continue. Would they continue if they were not taught at the lowest common denominator? We will probably never know. I am certain that too stringent of requirements would cause the market to shrink more than the agencies/industry is willing to tolerate. Even though that will never happen, let's just say it did. The retention of divers would have to be at a sufficient level to make that economically viable. I just don't see the industry taking that gamble.

In order to not take this conversation any further OT, I'll state that what @BurhanMuntasser just posted about NAUI's OW course sounds really good.

 

[TMHeimer]

@TMHeimer

The length of the course is important. In my view, most open water divers are trained to the scuba diver level, but certified at the open water level. I'd like to see the scuba diver course be strengthened a little so that it would appeal to the bucket list divers that make up the bulk of the market.

That said, I wonder how to retain some of those people to continue. Would they continue if they were not taught at the lowest common denominator? We will probably never know. I am certain that too stringent of requirements would cause the market to shrink more than the agencies/industry is willing to tolerate. Even though that will never happen, let's just say it did. The retention of divers would have to be at a sufficient level to make that economically viable. I just don't see the industry taking that gamble.

In order to not take this conversation any further OT, I'll state that what @BurhanMuntasser just posted about NAUI's OW course sounds really good.

I agree completely on all points here. Especially your point about retention to make the industry economically viable if the OW course is too long and off-putting. How you would make this retention happen I have no idea.
BurhanMuntasser-- Thanks, that is what I was looking regarding NAUI. Is CPR required (and O2 training) for the NAUI OW course? At any rate, this is way better than what's done at PADI. Is the course much longer than 2 pool days on the weekend & 2 days OW checkout?
Anyone like to chime in on other agencies' rescue skills taught in OW course?

 

[TMHeimer]

I think the OW course on an individual basis should be as long as it takes to make the student competent. This won't happen much unless the instructor is very dedicated and/or gets extra pay for the extra time which I think he/she deserves.
I do know one instructor who does this more or less without charging more.

I am not advocating OW students learn Cave or Wreck diving. I was just trying to emphasize that OW courses have to have limits and not have the whole Rescue added to the curriculum.

Yeah I can agree with that. As I mentioned, I don't think the whole rescue course need be added to OW, just the major skills (as BurhanM mentioned that NAUI does).
Agree with your "as long as it takes" to get competent (on all the skills). As you said, you get into problems like extra pay, dedicated instructor, as well as pool time, etc. But ideally, of course.

 

[Darnold9999]

IMO, biggest skill taught in rescue that isn't covered in OW: self-reliance.

One of the significant things I remember taking away from my "old school" training was self reliance in the water. When we finished the course we were all very comfortable under the water and confident that we would likely survive something going wrong as we practiced recovering from pretty much everything that could go wrong with a single tank and single reg as well as a bunch of exercises that were designed to help prevent or at least slow down the panic response when something went wrong. This was a NAUI scuba diver course in the late 70's. The big difference was that it was taught at university as an extra curricular course by the University safety diver. I gather that even in those days he went well beyond what was normal for an initial course. It took several weeks to do with lots of pool and classroom sessions at the university. As I recall very basic rescue skills were taught, but as this was 40 plus years ago I can't be sure.

In the context of rescue, you can't be rescuing someone until you are comfortable rescuing yourself so IMHO teaching anything more than the very basics - how to donate and receive air, how to ascend as a buddy pair and possibly how to drop weights and tow an incapacitated diver is more that most OW students are capable of learning in the typical short OW course.

 

[TMHeimer]

One of the significant things I remember taking away from my "old school" training was self reliance in the water. When we finished the course we were all very comfortable under the water and confident that we would likely survive something going wrong as we practiced recovering from pretty much everything that could go wrong with a single tank and single reg as well as a bunch of exercises that were designed to help prevent or at least slow down the panic response when something went wrong. This was a NAUI scuba diver course in the late 70's. The big difference was that it was taught at university as an extra curricular course by the University safety diver. I gather that even in those days he went well beyond what was normal for an initial course. It took several weeks to do with lots of pool and classroom sessions at the university. As I recall very basic rescue skills were taught, but as this was 40 plus years ago I can't be sure.

In the context of rescue, you can't be rescuing someone until you are comfortable rescuing yourself so IMHO teaching anything more than the very basics - how to donate and receive air, how to ascend as a buddy pair and possibly how to drop weights and tow an incapacitated diver is more that most OW students are capable of learning in the typical short OW course.

Sounds like a good course you had back then. Dropping weights is now taught in PADI OW, but with the student dropping their own-- not a rescuer dropping a panicked diver's. Of course the OOA share air ascend drill is taught as are the tows.
In thinking about the Rescue course I took (which went nights, Tues. through Fri. and one weekend day at the ocean doing the scenarios)-- We spent more time on each skill in the pool than is probably spent on each pool skill in OW course. But, not that much more. Basically once you got the skill done correctly it was checked off and on to the next one, much like in OW course. Perhaps including doing the major rescue course skills one time correctly in an OW course wouldn't take THAT much more time. Plus the students would have them included in the manual to read over & review.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I agree completely on all points here. Especially your point about retention to make the industry economically viable if the OW course is too long and off-putting. How you would make this retention happen I have no idea.
BurhanMuntasser-- Thanks, that is what I was looking regarding NAUI. Is CPR required (and O2 training) for the NAUI OW course? At any rate, this is way better than what's done at PADI. Is the course much longer than 2 pool days on the weekend & 2 days OW checkout?
Anyone like to chime in on other agencies' rescue skills taught in OW course?

For retention, I think objective standards help, with students being informed/checking themselves off at meeting the criteria. Just an idea. Requiring NB/T (oh boy, am I opening up a can of worms here that will really go OT?) for the entire course. Starting with skin diving skills to ease the transition to scuba/breathing compressed air underwater.

From what @BurhanMuntasser described, I don't think it is too onerous. @BurhanMuntasser, what confined water/open water time is required to go through all these typically in your experience?

My guess is by extending confined water a bit and adding one day of diving (not too burdensome for most, I'd hope) is all that would be required. However, given that the resort style training is quite popular in my area (one school teaches pool Friday night, open water dives Saturday and Sunday and you're done - but they've also had a couple training deaths in the past few years. Coincidence? I think not - but let me restrain my compulsion to go OT).

Ultimately, if divers are to keep diving, they need to either be comfortable/confident/competent, or just love the underwater world so much that they set aside their fears. I'm not too keen on the latter and doubt it is the trend.

While I'm not a NAUI instructor, I tip my hat on having some basic, fundamental skills in open water as a requirement.

 

[BoltSnap]

Is CPR required (and O2 training) for the NAUI OW course?

No, not for the SD or ASD courses.

 

[BoltSnap]

Is the course much longer than 2 pool days on the weekend & 2 days OW checkout?

I really can't answer it for other instructors but NAUI system is based on performance and meeting standards not time in the most part. My SD course is about 30 hours in class, 25 hours pool and 4 - 5 days of diving (8 - 10 dives). A friend of mine who is a NAUI instructor in Asia runs his classes in 7 days, 5 for class and confined water and two days for openwater work.