Replacement Hydro Sticker

[redacted]

Let's say I am Bob. As Bob, my "inspection criteria" is for to look at a tank and make sure the tank markings are correct. I just did my VIP. I put a sticker saying "VIP by Bob" on it. I met all legal requirements. Where is the fraud?

Better yet, why don't you read the Luxfer inspection instructions

 

[guruboy]

There are no legal requirements for a visual inspection, but there are industry standards. You can't just make up your own standards. In a lawsuit, the question will be whether your inspection followed industry standards.

The same thing happens every time scuba instruction results in a fatality. Scuba certification is not governed by law. Agency standards are not governed by law. If you as the instructor did not follow industry standards or agency standards, you will indeed be found liable, as has been shown many times. The recent case in Utah in which an instructor did not follow agency or industry standards when a Boy Scout died shows this perfectly.

As an instructor, he was claiming to be an instructor qualified by an agency. As Bob, I'm just Bob. I'm not claiming to be anything besides Bob.

 

[guruboy]

Better yet, why don't you read the Luxfer inspection instructions

I guess Bob could follow and claim to have inspected them according to the Luxfer scuba tank inspection guide.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

What is the industry standard and how many variations are there of the industry standard?
Where can I view an official document of the industry standard?

 

[guruboy]

What is the industry standard and how many variations are there of the industry standard?
Where can I view an official document of the industry standard?

I know PSI and TDI/SDI both provide training for scuba VIP. Not sure if they use the same set of standards though or if it is publicly available. The luxfer guide you can find using google. Make sure you get the scuba tank one and not one for some of their other tank types (like wrapped).

Luxfer's Scuba Cylinder Visual Inspection Guide (second edition)

You could also lookup the federal regulations on 5 year re-qualification which includes a visual inspection. This is not necessarily the same as the scuba industry one though. You will want to check the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) CGA (Compressed Gas Association) information. The CGA Pamphlets don't appear to be public though.
49 CFR 173.34

CGA pamphlets

 

[JohnnyC]

Since we're nitpicking, a VIP sticker is really only worth something between the time the inspection is complete and the valve is spun back on. It could be screwed the very first time gas is put in the tank, so really, any defense lawyer is going to point out that as soon as it's out of the custody of the inspector, he has no liability anyway.

Shops refusing to fill tanks without a VIP is just a money grab since, as pointed out, a visual inspection is done at the time of hydro. For that first year after hydro, no sticker required, yet some shops will still refuse to fill.

That doesn't mean you should go throwing around VIP stickers on a bunch of tanks that you pick up from a yard sale, but I've got some tanks that haven't been used in over a year. You bet your ass I'm going to Leisure Pro and slapping on a generic sticker instead of wasting the gas that's in it when I know exactly the chain of custody and how it was stored.

 

[redacted]

That doesn't mean you should go throwing around VIP stickers on a bunch of tanks that you pick up from a yard sale, but I've got some tanks that haven't been used in over a year. You bet your ass I'm going to Leisure Pro and slapping on a generic sticker instead of wasting the gas that's in it when I know exactly the chain of custody and how it was stored.

I do not understandd the comment about wasted gas. The inspection status should only be an issue when filling a tank.

 

[JohnnyC]

To do a VIP they need to take the valve off. If I've got a set of doubles full of 10/50, that's a lot of helium they would waste just to take a peek inside. If I needed a top up, they wouldn't do it with an old VIP, even if I still had gas I didn't want to lose.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I know PSI and TDI/SDI both provide training for scuba VIP. Not sure if they use the same set of standards though or if it is publicly available. The luxfer guide you can find using google. Make sure you get the scuba tank one and not one for some of their other tank types (like wrapped).

Luxfer's Scuba Cylinder Visual Inspection Guide (second edition)

You could also lookup the federal regulations on 5 year re-qualification which includes a visual inspection. This is not necessarily the same as the scuba industry one though. You will want to check the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) CGA (Compressed Gas Association) information. The CGA Pamphlets don't appear to be public though.
49 CFR 173.34

CGA pamphlets

The point I was trying to make is that VIP's are a self described protocol with no two shops necessarily having the same protocols as what passes and what doesn't. For instance some shops will not put a sticker on a tank that has a very slight hazing or discoloration on the tank walls, and others feel this is perfectly normal. Some may insist on changing out the burst disc every time and changing the tank O-ring, and some let it slide. There are variations depending on the shop. There is no legal requirement and no specific protocol.
The only reason for a VIP originally was to check primarily for rust pits, but like it was said, a wet boat fill then later pure O2 bleed for PP fills and there could be a big problem within that one year period.
Hydro's on the other hand have a strict by the book protocol etc.
BTW, I do my own and I'm one of the most anal people around as far as that kind of stuff. I have my own tank cleaning tools and AFAIK do a much better and more thorough job than some tank monkey at a dive shop.

 

[stuartv]

There are no legal requirements for a visual inspection, but there are industry standards. You can't just make up your own standards. In a lawsuit, the question will be whether your inspection followed industry standards.

The same thing happens every time scuba instruction results in a fatality. Scuba certification is not governed by law. Agency standards are not governed by law. If you as the instructor did not follow industry standards or agency standards, you will indeed be found liable, as has been shown many times. The recent case in Utah in which an instructor did not follow agency or industry standards when a Boy Scout died shows this perfectly.

Isn't guruboy's point that if he puts his own VIP sticker on and the shop fills it, then, it's really on the shop? Because what the shop SHOULD do is examine the sticker to verify that it says the cylinder was VIP'd based on some industry standard. Whether is was signed by a TDI certified Inspector, or a IANTD certified inspector, or whatever. If the sticker just says "inspected by Bob" with no claims regarding the cylinder meeting any specific set of standards, then the shop should not fill it. But if they do, then the liability is on them, right?