Rental computers and newer divers

[Landau]

Many computers have terrible interfaces impossible to use without the manual, others are simplicity itself.

A terrible example is the Suunto Zoop Novo. Out shop rents these and I have to get out the manual or a demo app on my phone to set it for Nitrox.

A great example is the Suunto Eon Core - it's menu system is simplicity itself. No need to ever consult the manual. I think it is a slightly better interface than Shearwater's.

Why Suunto couldn't use a similar interface on the Zoop only they know.

Many other brands have similar terrible interfaces as the Zoop, especially all the one button computers, and a course with purchase wouldn't help since they are so counter intuitive. Steps that make little sense will be quickly forgotten.

I personally think this borders on a safety issue for the worst examples.

 

[34109411]

At the end of the day, the diver is responsible for his/her own safety. We all carry high-powered computers in our pockets, aka cell phones, that would easily show anyone (including foreign divers speaking a different language) how to set their percentages with a quick Google search. It was irresponsible of Buddy #3 to ignore this very basic requirement --- ESPECIALLY for NDL dive at 110' with two strangers that he met 30 mins prior.

The dive shop renting the gear should have confirmed with the diver that he knew how to set the mix, but I disagree with the notion that they should have set the mix FOR HIM. You are opening up yourself to liability.....it is the same reason I won't analyze people's mixes for them. That is on you. You are certified, you should know the process, and if you don't -- you have no business diving.

Just my two pennies, as someone who hands rental gear to people on a weekly basis.

i agree with you. You rent something you don't know how to use it ? Just don't rent it. The dive
shop should not set the computer this belong to the diver who will use it. Should he ask before taking the computer further information about the dive computer to anyone ? Yes but he didn't.

 

[stretchthepenn]

At the end of the day, the diver is responsible for his/her own safety. We all carry high-powered computers in our pockets, aka cell phones, that would easily show anyone (including foreign divers speaking a different language) how to set their percentages with a quick Google search. It was irresponsible of Buddy #3 to ignore this very basic requirement --- ESPECIALLY for NDL dive at 110' with two strangers that he met 30 mins prior.

The dive shop renting the gear should have confirmed with the diver that he knew how to set the mix, but I disagree with the notion that they should have set the mix FOR HIM. You are opening up yourself to liability.....it is the same reason I won't analyze people's mixes for them. That is on you. You are certified, you should know the process, and if you don't -- you have no business diving.

Just my two pennies, as someone who hands rental gear to people on a weekly basis.

i agree with you. You rent something you don't know how to use it ? Just don't rent it. The dive
shop should not set the computer this belong to the diver who will use it. Should he ask before taking the computer further information about the dive computer to anyone ? Yes but he didn't.

I pretty strongly disagree with both these arguments.

Part of my work is in usability/UX, and one of the field's central tenets is that when a user encounters a problem, it's (usually) not their fault; it's the product that has failed the user. Yes, idiots exist. Yes, people need to do their due diligence. Et cetera. But when a well-meaning person engages with a system that is obscure or just plain unfamiliar, then it's up to the product's designer/provider to ease the user's path.

Also, realize that the user who gets stuck in a UX-failure situation usually won't know what they don't know. To illustrate this point, consider the "Rumsfeld Matrix."

The diver in the story -- the poor sap who got a dive computer that he didn't know how to operate correctly -- was in Quadrant III, at bottom left. He didn't know how to adjust the computer, and he didn't even know that he needed to ask the question, "How do I adjust this computer?"

And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speculate that moving to Quadrant II, at the top left, wouldn't have made much difference. The most likely scenario is that a diver would realize "Hey...I need to adjust this computer and don't know how to do it!" after the boat was out of wi-fi range.

 

[JohnN]

The boat's DM made sure that all divers had buddies, and I ended up in a group of three, with the guy sitting next to me on the very crowded boat and another guy on the other side of the boat. I quickly saw that the guy next to me was very experienced. When we met the other guy, we learned that he was visiting America from Europe and was doing only this day's diving, with all equipment rented locally. He seemed confident, and we were all using an appropriate nitrox mix for the two deeper NDL dives (about 110 feet/33 meters max) we were about to do.

The dive went well. We stuck together appropriately as we explored the wreck. About halfway through I checked the European's gas supply, and he did not know how to answer because he was thinking in bars and his gauge was in PSI. I saw he was doing very well--no concerns about gas supply. As we got reasonably near NDLs, we started up the ascent line, with the European going first. At safety stop depth, I saw him looking at the computer in his rented console, and he seemed puzzled. I looked, and I saw that he had 4 more minutes of required decompression to do. I don't know what brand of computer it was (I am not very knowledgeable about current computers), but I could plainly see that he was in deco. He had apparently not realized that he had violated NDLs during the dive.

Back on the boat, we explained it all to him. He had never seen a computer of any kind in deco. We told him that because of what had happened, his next dive would be shortened, and we told him to stay well above us throughout. He did indeed stay well above us throughout the dive, but when started the ascent, we could see that he still had not understood the computer NDL information and had not ascended early enough--he was already well into deco. The other buddy did not have enough wetsuit and was freezing, so I stayed with him throughout his long deco stop.

Back on the boat, it was obvious what had happened. The rental facility he had used had advised him on the proper nitrox mix for the dive, but they had then handed him an unfamiliar rental computer and not told him a damned thing about it. I asked him about the nitrox setting, and he had no idea how to do it. I am sure it was set to air. There is no way he could have been that far into deco with the mix he had.

It can be very hard--borderline impossible in some cases--to set the oxygen percentage on an unfamiliar computer. I have a friend who has more than 200 dives but only does trips once a year, and she has to get out the manual and teach herself how to do it on her one-button computer before every trip. I had never seen this guy's computer before, and I would have had no idea how to do it. I cannot imagine how a shop can tell someone to use a certain percentage of nitrox on a dive and then not make sure the rental computer was properly set. It could have been much worse. What if he had been on air and using a computer previously set for nitrox?

So here are the questions for newer divers reading this.

1. If you rent a computer, would you know how to set the oxygen percentage?
2. Would you know how to tell if your NDL is getting low in time to ascend?
3. Can you recognize when your rental computer is telling you how to do required decompression stops?

Kudos to you for picking up insta-buddies

I am not that noble and got a solo cert so I could avoid having to worry about other divers

 

[Altamira]

Unfortunately, the situation @boulderjohn described on rental computer use on dive boats is not unusual. SB members generally know what should happen when given a rental computer, but that knowledge is not common among most divers I see on recreational dive boats populated with vacation divers. The last time I was on a dive boat that required computers to meet their own/insurance policy for computer use, they handed out the computers about 5 minutes before splash, with no instructions how to set or use them. I had my own matching computers, but had no idea how to set or operate the wrist models being used, so I was not able to provide any help, and the DMs were too busy trying to get everyone in the water. I don't think any of the divers had a clue as to settings or use, and the computers were just window dressing. Sad!

 

[Tim1966]

In open course there’s one thing to use a computer you’re supposed to read it’s instruction.

In Nitrox course one important thing is to learn how to set the Nitrox mode.

If someone using Nitrox without knowledge to even attempt (1) looking for online manual on how to set it, (2) asking for help on setting Nitrox mode, but instead (3) do the dive in air mode without letting anyone knows, and ignore deco obligation like what is described in the thread.

You can’t blame the shop who he is renting from, this diver should have his cert cancelled, shame that it is not feasible

 

[Jai Bar]

I had asked several operators if I could just bring the computers and attach them to their regs, they all said no. This is the one reason I would recommend hose-less AI comps, and will go that route next time.

They may say no also to the possibility of attaching your pressure sensor/transmitters to their first stages as well.

 

[Allen-1]

Many computers have terrible interfaces impossible to use without the manual, others are simplicity itself.

A terrible example is the Suunto Zoop Novo. Out shop rents these and I have to get out the manual or a demo app on my phone to set it for Nitrox.

A great example is the Suunto Eon Core - it's menu system is simplicity itself. No need to ever consult the manual. I think it is a slightly better interface than Shearwater's.

Why Suunto couldn't use a similar interface on the Zoop only they know.

Many other brands have similar terrible interfaces as the Zoop, especially all the one button computers, and a course with purchase wouldn't help since they are so counter intuitive. Steps that make little sense will be quickly forgotten.

I personally think this borders on a safety issue for the worst examples.

I'm a fairly new diver, and I wouldn't consider using a rental computer. That's in line with always using my own, or the same, gear where possible so that my attention is focused where I need it to be - not strugglig with my equipment.

I've used a Suunto Zoop for about 80 dives, my brother gave it to me - and it works fine - but yes indeed the interface is awful. I installed an app on my iphone to help me navigate through its screens. I'm a software developer - and the Zoop itself simply isn't all all intuitive. It works very well as a dive computer, but setting it up is tedious.

I just purchased a Suunto D5 from a member of this forum, it's much more intuitive, no manual needed to set it up. Took it into a pool to check it out; waiting for warmer weather to take out in open water.

 

[Jai Bar]

The boat's DM made sure that all divers had buddies, and I ended up in a group of three, with the guy sitting next to me on the very crowded boat and another guy on the other side of the boat. I quickly saw that the guy next to me was very experienced. When we met the other guy, we learned that he was visiting America from Europe and was doing only this day's diving, with all equipment rented locally. He seemed confident, and we were all using an appropriate nitrox mix for the two deeper NDL dives (about 110 feet/33 meters max) we were about to do.

The dive went well. We stuck together appropriately as we explored the wreck. About halfway through I checked the European's gas supply, and he did not know how to answer because he was thinking in bars and his gauge was in PSI. I saw he was doing very well--no concerns about gas supply. As we got reasonably near NDLs, we started up the ascent line, with the European going first. At safety stop depth, I saw him looking at the computer in his rented console, and he seemed puzzled. I looked, and I saw that he had 4 more minutes of required decompression to do. I don't know what brand of computer it was (I am not very knowledgeable about current computers), but I could plainly see that he was in deco. He had apparently not realized that he had violated NDLs during the dive.

Back on the boat, we explained it all to him. He had never seen a computer of any kind in deco. We told him that because of what had happened, his next dive would be shortened, and we told him to stay well above us throughout. He did indeed stay well above us throughout the dive, but when started the ascent, we could see that he still had not understood the computer NDL information and had not ascended early enough--he was already well into deco. The other buddy did not have enough wetsuit and was freezing, so I stayed with him throughout his long deco stop.

Back on the boat, it was obvious what had happened. The rental facility he had used had advised him on the proper nitrox mix for the dive, but they had then handed him an unfamiliar rental computer and not told him a damned thing about it. I asked him about the nitrox setting, and he had no idea how to do it. I am sure it was set to air. There is no way he could have been that far into deco with the mix he had.

It can be very hard--borderline impossible in some cases--to set the oxygen percentage on an unfamiliar computer. I have a friend who has more than 200 dives but only does trips once a year, and she has to get out the manual and teach herself how to do it on her one-button computer before every trip. I had never seen this guy's computer before, and I would have had no idea how to do it. I cannot imagine how a shop can tell someone to use a certain percentage of nitrox on a dive and then not make sure the rental computer was properly set. It could have been much worse. What if he had been on air and using a computer previously set for nitrox?

So here are the questions for newer divers reading this.

1. If you rent a computer, would you know how to set the oxygen percentage?
2. Would you know how to tell if your NDL is getting low in time to ascend?
3. Can you recognize when your rental computer is telling you how to do required decompression stops?

This could have gone wrong in so many ways.

For starters, if the diver with the rented psi computer had a higher air consumption he could have gotten in situation where he could not complete his "deco". Now, even if the risk wasn't high (assuming he dove Nitrox and the computer set to Air) but some divers can even panic from a situation like this. Especially since he had already another "malfunction": diving with a pressure gauge units he was not familiar with, as an additional contributor to problems. Imagine now if also the sea was choppy, or currents, low vis etc. so many factors that could have turned a regular dive into a more dangerous situation.

Another possibility for the computer prescribing deco stops could be if the rental computer was not reset and it had also accumulated the information from previous divers who rented it.

It could be nice if the dive club was kind enough to show the renter how to set the computer, make sure he knows the spg units are psi and that he knows how to convert and so on. But it is our responsibility (our life, after all) to check that the gear is in good condition, that we know how to operate it, and even to ask maybe if theey have an spg in bars..

Regarding your questions: I wouldn't dive with a computer that I don't know how to change the oxygen percentage, that I wouldn't understand the remaining NDL time or couldn't recognize that it is requesting decompression stops. This seems to me irresponsible diving. Actually, same thing happened also in the days when everyone was using tables, one could end up in places that were using completely different tables, some could be very confusing.

 

[boulderjohn]

In open course there’s one thing to use a computer you’re supposed to read it’s instruction.

In Nitrox course one important thing is to learn how to set the Nitrox mode.

I am not sure I understood the first statement. If you rent a computer, you aren't going to get instructions in most cases. Earlier in the thread, someone said a shop he knows gives instructions for the computers they rent, but I've never seen it. If you look at the full instructions for a computer, they amount to a small book, with what you need to know scattered throughout in a way that makes it hard to find what you really need to know.

No nitrox teaches you how to set the oxygen percentage, because every computer is different. I have taught nitrox course, and I would not know how to set the nitrox on most computers.