Remington Enters the AR-15 Market

[H2Andy]

2. A switch from the original extruded powder used in early develomental lots of M193 Ball ammunition with a colloidal ball powder, made by Olin using WWII surplus cannon powder with an unintended side effect of having about 8 times too much potassium permanganate used as a stabilizer in the original cannon powder.

if i recall correctly, Colt expressely stated that this ammo should not be used on the M-16, but they were ignored

some people even go as far as saying this was "sabotage" on the part of the establishment who were wedded to the M-14. i understand that the closing of the Springfield Armory (whose last production rifle was the M-14 and who lost out to the M-16) and the shift to civilian contractors under the Johnson administration was a result of this debacle.

if that is the case, they have blood on their hands

 

[Wayward Son]

My handloads use W748, which is a ball powder. I also use this powder in my 30-30. I get excellent accuracy with it in both rifles but have found it to be a "dirty" powder. It leaves the brass grungy, more filth in the gun itself. If I was shooting a lot of volume, I'd prolly work with some cleaner burning powders just to minimize the possibility of problems of infrequent cleaning in use.

 

[h2odragon1]

And How Is Any Of This Related To Scuba Diving??????????????

 

[H2Andy]

And How Is Any Of This Related To Scuba Diving??????????????

you may want to take a look at the title of this forum

which happens to be ...

Non-Diving Related Stuff

(reading comprehension is a wonderful thing)

and with 131 posts, you really need to learn a lot more about how things are done here before you start criticizing others

 

[Wayward Son]

well, ya never know when you'll need to climb back in the boat, grab your battle rifles & embark on a rousing bit of piracy.

 

[H2Andy]

then there's that ...

 

[DA Aquamaster]

if i recall correctly, Colt expressely stated that this ammo should not be used on the M-16, but they were ignored

some people even go as far as saying this was "sabotage" on the part of the establishment who were wedded to the M-14. i understand that the closing of the Springfield Armory (whose last production rifle was the M-14 and who lost out to the M-16) and the shift to civilian contractors under the Johnson administration was a result of this debacle.

if that is the case, they have blood on their hands

Sprigfield Armory was specifically forbidden from submitting a prototype in the competition that led to the eventual adoption of the M-16.

The powers that be at the time wanted to stay with a full power round. (They did the same basic power play with NATO a decade earlier killing the .280 British - an intermediate round used in the FAL prototypes that was a near perfect intermediuate cartridge that is ironically nearly identical on size and performance to the 6.5 mm cartridges being considered currently. It would have given rifles of the era like the L1A1 and M-14 an excellent and controllable full auto capability with effective performance out to 400-500 yards.) They managed to kill the whole competition in terms of service rifle adoption but Amralite/Colt sold it to the USAF to replace their aging M1 Carbines and then McNamara's whiz kids got ahold of the idea and got it adopted for general use.

There is some support for the idea that it was a bit of a set up - intentional or otherwise. Colt opposed the change in ammunition and the idea that it did not need to be cleaned in the traditional sense (both I think were whiz kid ideas) but the General staff/US Army and Ordinance Dept did nothing and let it happen when they almost certainly knew, or at least should have known it was probably a bad idea to introduce the weapon prematurely without cleaning kits and with inadequately tested lots of ammunition using a new propellant.

If that is the case, then it was sort of the US Army verison of the pre-WWII big gun US Navy opposition to airpower and aircraft carriers. The irony here is that had they been more enlighted with the NATO caliber issue and with the aoption and development of the M16, we would have had a rifle essentially identical to an M4 in 6.5 Gendel 40 plus years ago.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

And How Is Any Of This Related To Scuba Diving??????????????

The M16/M4 series actually works pretty well in SEAL operations and some of the optics used by the military are waterproof to around 130 ft with that use in mind.

So next time you go to the local quarry...

 

[SterlingDiver]

And How Is Any Of This Related To Scuba Diving??????????????

.....but it seems to be posted in the "Non-Diving Related Stuff"!

:mooner:

 

[Lopaka]

i would like someone to honestly tell me they can shoot the M-14 in full auto with anything close to M-16 results. the big round is just a thing of the past ... even the Russians accepted this when they went with the AK-74 over the AK-47

LOL! I have to wonder how many of us here have ever fired the M-14 on full auto. My buddy and I converted ours in RVN to full auto, but that was rare, few had access to the selectors to replace the fixed (whatever it was called) gizmo pinned in place on the majority of rifles. To say it was a bit uncontrollable on full auto is understatement. It could be controlled if you had one of the nifty M-15 bipods that screwed on at the gas piston, and fired prone. Of course, ya couldn't see squat from all the dust kicked up, but no matter, ya could keep the muzzle on target.

Never fired an AK-47 on auto, but did fire an AK-74. 74 had a bit of a climb tendency, not bad. The M-16 is definitely better, IMHO. The M-14 had the selector locked for a very good reason. But at 500-600 yards on semi-auto, I'll take the M-14 any day.

Got some old photos somewhere of me trying to control the beast on full auto from the hip, with my cover (cap/hat to army) over the heat shield. Fun but useless. First round on target, the rest all over as you tried to control the muzzle. Remember going down to the small range at Chu Lai with my buddy to burn up some ammo. Did not realize a bunch of army newbies had arrived for familiarization fire and were watching us play. Of course, we had a Thompson SMG and plenty of ammo as well. Never knew how long they waited, or whether they had apprehension's or were entertained by crazy Marines burning up ammo............