Remington Enters the AR-15 Market

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Many here will just have their masturbatory fantasy about what weapon they think they would use.

It seems very doubtful that any would have any real experience other than their fantasy time.

I don't like felt recoil; it can hurt.

I prefer to fantasize about other things but all the same I own a really nifty Rem 870 that someone (a rather attractive woman) once told me "with a shotgun like that beauty you don't need a woman" to which I replied "Uh, let's not get carried away, eh?"
 
We just need to go AK47
The AK is prolific, simple and reliable, and the semi-auto clones are comparatively cheap by evil black rifle (EBR) standards, but accuracy is not a trait that has ever been associated with them.

In a sense the AK-47 is an excellent comprise but is virtually ALL compromise. It was designed to deliver a large volume of fire and was never intended to be very precise. It is both heavier and less controllable than a AR-15 of similar lenght and weight and is far less accurate. It's real strenghts are peasant proof design and the ability to continue to run even if it never gets cleaned - for years. The loose tolerances and gas piston operation of the AK does offer a reliability advantage in severely dirty conditions, but it is a small advantage compared to all you give up if you do not need to use the rifle under those conditions.

The 7.62mmx39 offers no real stopping power advantage over the 5.56mm and is less effective at ranges under 150-200 meters where the 5.56mm will yaw and fragment while the 7.62x39 tends to bore straight through.
And cheap 7.62X39 ammunition has also dried up, so if you go the AK clone route it makes more sense to get on in .223/5.56mm as they are cheaper to shoot and are a bit more accurate (2.0 to 2.5 MOA compared to 3.5 to 4.0 MOA).

Another one of my favorites is the AR-180. The original AR-180's shoot a bit better and the folding stock is very nice and makes for a very portable weapon with a very usable and efficient 18" barrel - but they are hard to find and in excellent conditon will go for $1200 or so. The current AR-180B is also not bad, especially if you add an Ace folding stock and you can get one for around $700 (before accessories).

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The M14 was one of my favorites at the time - in part as it did a lot of things well with great stopping power, greatlong range accuracy and surprisingly good snap shooting ability at short range and the 7.62x51 is still my favorite battle rifle caliber. But the FAL/L1A1 handles better and the HK-91/G3 is more accurate in a practical battle rifle configuration. In terms of uber accuracy, the an AR-10 with an A3 style railed reciever and a bull barrel is very tough to beat as 1/2 MOA or better accuracy is common and it will do it all day long. So, like the Ak-47 the M-14 does several things well, but is not at the top of the class in any one of them - except perhaps reliability as with the exception of very tight match grade rifles, you can basically bury them in the sand, shake it off and start shooting.

20 years ago I could never in my wildest dreams imagine myself saying this, but if I could only have one rifle that had to deal with a wide range of tactical situations from 10 to 400 meters, I'd pick some variation of the AR-15 and one of the leading contenders would be a standard M-16A1 clone. It is light and fast handling and (in good condition as opposed to the long in the tooth mostly worn out weapons I was issued) is reliable and capable of excellent accuracy in the 1.25-1.5 MOA range. If the engagement ranges were primarily under 250 meters, I'd choose something very close to the XM-177E2, but with a slightly heavier barrel.
 
40 years ago I was 6, LOL. My dad spent a year in Thailand during the Viet Nam war building air strips in the jungles & my brother enlisted in the navy when he finished high school, things were pretty hot & heavy at that time. I was in that age to be in between major conflicts. My service was peace time, I enlisted in spring of 1980 with expectations that the Iran hostage crisis would escalate.

My military training was with an M-16. Yes, there is & has long been controversy over this rifle, but it is what it is & that comes down to being our military's battle rifle. I've seen quite a few interesting alternatives reported on in recent years & think that there will be a change at some point, it just doesn't appear imminent.
 
40 years ago I was 6, LOL.
Yeah, well, that is what you get for posting your grisly visage!

Or mebbe I think I look no older than you??? :D

(psst, I enlisted in the Marines at the ripe old age of 17, in 1965. The math is easy..)
 
Yeah, well, that is what you get for posting your grisly visage!

Or mebbe I think I look no older than you??? :D

(psst, I enlisted in the Marines at the ripe old age of 17, in 1965. The math is easy..)

Lopaka: You are an "old salt". I enlisted Jan. 1968. We qualified on the M-14 but were issued the M-16 when we finally got in country. As a plt. cmdr. we could choose our long gun in addition to our standard issue 1911 colts. Every Lt. in my CO. took the M-14. Heavier and longer, it was still the better choice in '68-'69.
 
I "always" thought this would be fun to own:

HK PSG1


it's funny ... i scoped an SKS on the same principle


of course ... an SKS being what it is ... it's just not the same

:14:
 
Heavier and longer, it was still the better choice in '68-'69.

the M-16 had, as you know, a couple of teething issues

but i think time has shown the superior design is the M-16

i would like someone to honestly tell me they can shoot the M-14 in full auto with anything close to M-16 results. the big round is just a thing of the past ... even the Russians accepted this when they went with the AK-74 over the AK-47


In a sense the AK-47 is an excellent comprise but is virtually ALL compromise. It was designed to deliver a large volume of fire and was never intended to be very precise. It is both heavier and less controllable than a AR-15 of similar lenght and weight and is far less accurate.


actually, Eugene Stoner had a chance to test the AK-47 and he designed the AR-15 (off the AR-10) as an answer to (and an improvement on) the AK-47

it is not a coincidence that Stoner used a smaller caliber, btw

despite initial problems (many of them caused by the Springfield Armory jerks who just couldn't handle someone else had come up with a winning design), the AR-15/M-16 has proven itself many times over

20 years ago I could never in my wildest dreams imagine myself saying this, but if I could only have one rifle that had to deal with a wide range of tactical situations from 10 to 400 meters, I'd pick some variation of the AR-15 and one of the leading contenders would be a standard M-16A1 clone.

from an objective point of view, this is indeed the verdict

i like the A4, but that's just because it looks so sexy

:blinking:
 
The M-16 got a bad reputation for unreliability due to:

1. Being issued without cleaning kits (never the recommendation of Colt, Armalite or Eugene Stoner) and
2. A switch from the original extruded powder used in early develomental lots of M193 Ball ammunition with a colloidal ball powder, made by Olin using WWII surplus cannon powder with an unintended side effect of having about 8 times too much potassium permanganate used as a stabilizer in the original cannon powder.

When clean and after the powder issue was resolved, the M16 functioned well, but the reputation was already established and deserved or not, tended to stick.

Stoner went with a gas piston design on the AR-16, a 7.62mm NATO caliber rifle that went on to be the AR-18 in 5.56mm caliber, but I m not sure if he did this due to Colt having the direct impingment patents at the time or whether he felt it would be more reliable given that the ball powder issue was still unresolved.

I do know the AR-18/AR-180 is very similar in overall execution of design to the AK-47 and AKM with an excellent gas piston system, a stamped receiver and much more dirt freindly upper receiver/bolt tolerances. The barrel lenght is also nearly ideal with a folding stock and an 18" barrel in a weapon with a shorter overall lenght than the average 16" M16 variant. Unfortunately the AR-18 never got the interest or the development afforded to the M-16.

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I agree that the M14 is not even in the running in terms of full auto controllability compared to the M-16. In that regard, the original 20" barrelled M16 loses in comparision to the shorter MX177 variants and to a lesser extent to the current M4. The shorter barrel (10.5" to 11.5" in the XM177E1 and XM177E2 and 14" in the M4) is not kind to muzzle velocity, but improves control in full auto due to slightly reduced recoil.
 

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