Religion and scuba

[drrich2]

Kids don't have to be taught to lie, steal, etc... They have to be taught what things are wrong, but doing some wrong comes naturally. No, I don't believe God created sin. I believe He created free will.

 

[Pavao]

Attribute only the good stuff to god, the bad stuff did not come from him

But uhh... there's a second creator???

 

[galvanf]

Dfx, could you clarify your statement about religion making people do good things would be a short list? To start that list I'll mention the 26% of the world's health care that is run by the Catholic church. Or is that not what you meant? I don't mean to be snarky at all, it's an honest question because social welfare globally is by large run by religious organizations.

They run 26% of the worlds healthcare at considerable profit. They don't do it because they're good, they do it because it's good business.

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[CuracaoJ]

Galvnaf, perhaps in the developed world, or perhaps only their for profit units, which are a small percentage of the total. But I doubt the catholic health care system is a money maker as a whole, and even if it were it certainly would not be without donor and volunteer support. Even if it is, that's not my point. My point is this question: why is it that when a handful of judgemental fundamentalist jerkwads make a noise on tv it's religious. But when 100s of millions of religious people participate in social welfare it isn't?

 

[drrich2]

The origin of evil is, from what I understand, a similar discussion as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I don't know how it all fits together.

 

[mdb]

Imagine you're a parent. You tell your kids not to do something, but they do it anyway ... kids are like that. So you punish them for it. Years later they're grown up and with kids of their own ... you punish your grandchildren because their parents disobeyed you, too. And if you live long enough, you punish your great-grandchildren for that act that their grandparents did many decades before they were born.

That's the fundamental concept of "original sin" ... and it's at odds with everything I could possibly bring myself to believe about a being so all-knowing and powerful as to be able to create the universe. In fact, it seems so petty and ... well, stupid ... it boggles the mind that it's become the cornerstone of religious belief ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added July 16th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ----------



I'm going diving after work tonight. Haven't been in the water since Sunday. Here's a happy face for ya, Michael ... taken at "church" this past Sunday ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thank you Bob. Your pics are always a good antidote. Motivates me to head for our North Coast or Monterey for some in water time. great pic.

 

[dfx]

Dfx, could you clarify your statement about religion making people do good things would be a short list? To start that list I'll mention the 26% of the world's health care that is run by the Catholic church. Or is that not what you meant? I don't mean to be snarky at all, it's an honest question because social welfare globally is by large run by religious organizations.

Sure. But you need to look into the details. Just because a religious organization (or a religious person) does something good (or bad) doesn't mean that it's the religion which makes them do it.

There's no reason why a non-religious organization can't or wouldn't provide health care or other welfare services, and in fact many do. I'm not contesting that religion in some cases, maybe in this case, was an incentive to do something good. But it's not a necessary requirement. Which is why we do have secular health care and welfare.

Contrast this to the many acts of atrocities, both contemporary and historically, that were committed solely and exclusively for religious reasons and that would absolutely not have happened without religion, because there was no other reason to do them. Religion was a necessary requirement. Nobody will have any trouble coming up with a long list of examples.

And since it fits right into the topic, consider how the Catholic church (or its missionaries) have actually helped the spread of AIDS in Africa by preaching against the use of condoms, up to claiming that it's actually the condoms that cause AIDS! Again, this is something that is entirely rooted in religious doctrine. These people do (or did) terrible harm to the affected people, all the while fully convinced that they were doing the right thing. Religion preempted evidence which would have shown them they were doing the wrong thing.

 

[galvanf]

Because beliefs are not a matter of opinions or preferences. They're also not a matter of choice. People believe something because they're convinced. You can't simply decide to believe (or unbelieve) something. Something or somebody must convince you. Often this is done by the parents (or other authority figures) and the person never even gets the idea to question what they have been taught.

Religious moderation (or moderate religion) is certainly better than fundamentalism or extremism, and Western society has certainly come a long way in fostering this moderation and gradually replacing fundamentalism. But it wasn't the religions (or its adherents) that figured out that maybe they should take a step back. It was the secular society that forced them to. If it wasn't for the secular society putting a damper on religious insanity, we'd still be burning witches at the stake.

But fundamentalism still exists in our (Western) society today. Why is religious fundamentalism a problem? Because of the fundamentals of the religion. So how do the moderates play into this? Well, moderates are moderates because they're moderate in their faith. This is the same faith, the same tenets of the same religion, which forms the foundation for the fundamentalists. Take a religious moderate and have his or her faith grow, so strong that they're fully convinced of every word of it, and you get a fundamentalist. This is why fundamentalism won't just disappear, because this transitions keeps happening.

For an atheist or an agnostic, it's difficult to imagine what effect such a strong faith can have on a person. Put yourself in, say, Fred Phelps' shoes (may he rot in a non-existing hell). Imagine that you believe, really believe, that a solder died in the war because his home country endorses homosexuality. Imagine that you're fully convinced, without a doubt, that one directly caused the other, that god himself was instrumental in killing this soldier because of what's going on in his country. Because this is what your holy book says god does. He kills people by the millions, out of vengeance. Imagine further that you're fully convinced that the end of the world is near and that the messiah's return to pass judgment on the world is imminent. Would you not feel compelled to try to do something about it, maybe try to tell the world about this (to you completely obvious) connection? And if it's not about saving others, then maybe just to save yourself.

I'm not making this up. This is really what they believe (among other equally insane things) and without a doubt in their minds. It's not something they chose to believe. They're fully convinced of it and they can't just decide to unbelieve it. And their actions are a direct result of that. It's not because they're just homophobic a-holes and use this as an excuse to act out on it. (This might be true for some of them, but for the majority it's the other way around.) People who have left the church say so themselves. They fully believed every word of it and they did what they did because they thought it was the right thing to do. And this is just one of many examples.

Religion makes good people do bad things. Sure, sometimes religion also makes people do good things. But if you try to make a list of instances where this was the case, you will end up with a very short list. Furthermore, you would find that in each case, religion wasn't really a necessary requirement. OTOH you'll have no problem filling many pages with instances of religion having caused people to do horrible things, which certainly would not have happened if it hadn't been for religious fundamentalism. (Obviously some religions are better than others. Buddhist fundamentalism isn't much a problem, but even Buddhists have been known to resort to violence for purely religious reasons.)

I agree with some of what you said, but. As your example of people deciding to leave the church demonstrates it is a matter of choice.

Taking an example from a popular movie, some people choose the blue pill and others the red pill. Why? Because it is convenient for them at the time.

But I'm sure that would be a great topic for another thread "Is religion (or belief) a choice?". Unfortunately that's not the topic of this one and I hate to hijack.

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[delmolino]

I was raised by a Baptist father and a Roman Catholic mother who let decide what I wanted to be. At 11 I decided to be baptized in the Roman Catholic church but have never been very "active", I tend to be more like Italians going to church on special dates: Easter, Christmas, etc.

I recognize, as many mentioned, how many have historically used religion to maintain their status, accumulate wealth and dominate others, and yet I am still attracted by the idea of a Great Architect. Last year I was fortunate to travel around Jordan and Israel - scuba dove in Aqaba - and I was especially touched about the energy of the sacred places from all 3 main Abrahamic religions. However, I was also touched by Buddhism when in Thailand and Vietnam, and in other places by different religions.

Somewhat recently I have researched a bit about the Baha'i Faith and from my knowledge it is the religion that would fit better for me in terms of believing in different prophets in different parts of the world and with the message "mostly adjusted" for the time they came to earth. But still I have to drink some beer and wine from time to time, and they forbid this...

I have a telecommunications engineering background but then migrated to business where I studied some psychology that maybe soften me a bit too much, but that made me recognize that no matter how much we try human beings have intrinsic biases that make us irrational beings.

With 52 free minutes I recommend this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKQQAv5svkk

PS1 - I am reasonably new to scuba diving, and the activity made me to believe even more in a Great Architect, when I started seeing the underwater creatures and how beautiful they are.
PS2 - I can't keep up with this thread

 

[agilis]

"I can pray all day

and God don't come

but dial 911

and the Devil be here

in a minute"

Amiri Baraka