Religion and scuba

[phoenix31tt]

... so in other words, they have no choice. God has already predetermined that they would grow up to be bad people, and has punished them pre-emptively ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I, like you.. disagree with Rich's view that the babies & children would grow up to sin and as such have been pre-emptively punished... that totally goes against God's nature as i understand it...


from now on i'm only responding to good natured posts and questions in this thread again...

 

[drrich2]

Actually, I did not claim pre-emptive punishment. Dying before the age of accountability wouldn't result in Hell, hence David's confidence he'd see his son after his own eventual death.

Just because something is in one's nature doesn't mean they don't have a choice or aren't subject to judgment and punishment. Sending a pedophile to prison is an example of how we as a society do the same thing. And original sin wasn't chosen by God but rather our ancestors.

 

[Freewillow]

from now on i'm only responding to good natured posts and questions in this thread again...

You mean, only from people that believe in your own fairytales ?

Like we say in our country: "on ne saurait faire boire un âne s’il n’a pas soif"

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I, like you.. disagree with Rich's view that the babies & children would grow up to sin and as such have been pre-emptively punished... that totally goes against God's nature as i understand it...


from now on i'm only responding to good natured posts and questions in this thread again...

A short background ... I grew up in an evangelical household. My father was a lay minister, and both parents devoutly religious. My father was also an alcoholic, an abuser of both his wife and kids, and saw no conflict with his behavior and his faith ... in fact, he had several favored verses in the Bible to show why in God's eyes he was justified in his behavior. I went on to attend and graduate from an evangelical college (Eastern Nazarene College, in Massachusetts), and have probably spent more hours in my life studying the scriptures than most people do. And I found within them more questions than answers.

I don't dispute the existence of God ... but I very much dispute the interpretation of God that's commonly applied through religious beliefs and practices. If there is a divine creator, we've placed him in prison, bound by the limits of our mental and emotional capacities and our need to rationalize both our existence and our behavior. For many ... most ... faithful of pretty much every religion on earth, spirituality boils down to self-interest. Religion is very attractive to people of lower classes precisely because it promises a better existence in the next life ... if only you follow certain rules. It has, historically, been a way for the elite to exert control over the masses ... and a very popular means of making religious leaders both very wealthy and very powerful.

There is an inherent need within each of us to seek an answer to the question "why are we here?" ... it's almost a hormonal thing within our nature. Religion satisfies that need, and whether God exists or not is almost irrelevant to it ... we define God in such a way as to satisfy the need within ourselves. That's why every society has a religion, and why they're all so different from each other ... the tenets of faith are based not on a common origin, but on the premise of whatever culture we grew up in.

Religion and God are not the same thing. The former is completely comprehensible, and provides us with all the answers we'll ever need. The latter is far beyond our ability to comprehend, and leaves us with more questions than answers. If there is an ultimate Creator, I believe we are as far beneath His notice as the individual cells within our body are to our own consciousness. It's conceivable, perhaps, that He's aware of the existence of our planet, but would perceive humanity as little more than an infestation upon His creation ... a virus, if you will. We, as a species, are not nearly as important to the existence of God's creation as religion has made us out to be. If we die out completely as a species, God's creation will manage just fine without us. And, given what we know of the history of our planet, such an event is almost inevitable. The end times ... whether we're discussing the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah, or the calamitous disruption of society as described by Luke, or the Rapture as defined by the Darbyists, or the cosmology of any of the major religions ... all are referring not to the end of time, but the end of the human race. God's creation ... the heavens and the earth ... will proceed just fine without us.

Religion has one purpose ... to make us, as individuals and as a species, somehow relevant to the existence of the cosmos. The truth is that we're very recent additions to it, and most likely little more than passing transients. A few millennia after our species passes from the history of our planet ... as all species eventually do ... we won't even be a passing memory. Nobody will be living forever in a Mansion on Gold Street. But it's a nice dream to help those who need that dream make their way through the years in which they're allotted.

Personally, I'll enjoy the time I have by appreciating the beauty and wonder of the world around me ... it's all the gift I need from the Ultimate Designer. And if at the end of my days I find that I'm wrong, and am faced with the ultimate judgment, I'll thank Him for the gift He bestowed upon me, and accept whatever fate He has in store for my choices through life. Lord knows I'll have plenty of company, regardless of what that fate may be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver0001]

Actually, I did not claim pre-emptive punishment. Dying before the age of accountability .

Not familiar with this concept. What is the "age of accountability" and how on earth could it have anything to do with religion? People die at all ages for all reasons. Babies die at birth. People die in car accidents as young adults. War kills many, including innocent civilians.... women, children, the elderly......

Just this week a friend died in his sleep of 'natural causes'.

Are we to believe that all of these people, from infants to the elderly, are subject to some kind of "age of accountability?"

R..

---------- Post added July 16th, 2015 at 06:29 PM ----------

I can't thank this post in this forum, Bob, but I'll quote it.

I hope everyone reads it.

R..

A short background ... I grew up in an evangelical household. My father was a lay minister, and both parents devoutly religious. My father was also an alcoholic, an abuser of both his wife and kids, and saw no conflict with his behavior and his faith ... in fact, he had several favored verses in the Bible to show why in God's eyes he was justified in his behavior. I went on to attend and graduate from an evangelical college (Eastern Nazarene College, in Massachusetts), and have probably spent more hours in my life studying the scriptures than most people do. And I found within them more questions than answers.

I don't dispute the existence of God ... but I very much dispute the interpretation of God that's commonly applied through religious beliefs and practices. If there is a divine creator, we've placed him in prison, bound by the limits of our mental and emotional capacities and our need to rationalize both our existence and our behavior. For many ... most ... faithful of pretty much every religion on earth, spirituality boils down to self-interest. Religion is very attractive to people of lower classes precisely because it promises a better existence in the next life ... if only you follow certain rules. It has, historically, been a way for the elite to exert control over the masses ... and a very popular means of making religious leaders both very wealthy and very powerful.

There is an inherent need within each of us to seek an answer to the question "why are we here?" ... it's almost a hormonal thing within our nature. Religion satisfies that need, and whether God exists or not is almost irrelevant to it ... we define God in such a way as to satisfy the need within ourselves. That's why every society has a religion, and why they're all so different from each other ... the tenets of faith are based not on a common origin, but on the premise of whatever culture we grew up in.

Religion and God are not the same thing. The former is completely comprehensible, and provides us with all the answers we'll ever need. The latter is far beyond our ability to comprehend, and leaves us with more questions than answers. If there is an ultimate Creator, I believe we are as far beneath His notice as the individual cells within our body are to our own consciousness. It's conceivable, perhaps, that He's aware of the existence of our planet, but would perceive humanity as little more than an infestation upon His creation ... a virus, if you will. We, as a species, are not nearly as important to the existence of God's creation as religion has made us out to be. If we die out completely as a species, God's creation will manage just fine without us. And, given what we know of the history of our planet, such an event is almost inevitable. The end times ... whether we're discussing the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah, or the calamitous disruption of society as described by Luke, or the Rapture as defined by the Darbyists, or the cosmology of any of the major religions ... all are referring not to the end of time, but the end of the human race. God's creation ... the heavens and the earth ... will proceed just fine without us.

Religion has one purpose ... to make us, as individuals and as a species, somehow relevant to the existence of the cosmos. The truth is that we're very recent additions to it, and most likely little more than passing transients. A few millennia after our species passes from the history of our planet ... as all species eventually do ... we won't even be a passing memory. Nobody will be living forever in a Mansion on Gold Street. But it's a nice dream to help those who need that dream make their way through the years in which they're allotted.

Personally, I'll enjoy the time I have by appreciating the beauty and wonder of the world around me ... it's all the gift I need from the Ultimate Designer. And if at the end of my days I find that I'm wrong, and am faced with the ultimate judgment, I'll thank Him for the gift He bestowed upon me, and accept whatever fate He has in store for my choices through life. Lord knows I'll have plenty of company, regardless of what that fate may be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[CuracaoJ]

To the OP: I understand the question that you posed, and the reason why as it seems to be geographically important to you (although perhaps a little anecdotal). However, from an academic standpoint if you were to come to me with this as a paper idea for a religions class, I would suggest that you find a stronger premise, or at least pose a reasonable idea as to why there should be a relationship between scuba and religion (or lack thereof).
For me a more interesting study related to scuba board would be the use of religious language, or rhetoric, when it comes to scuba diving. IE the glorification of the BP/W vs. the demonifying of the split fin, and what language people use in these debates. Are gear choices doctrinal?

As to the rest of the debates I'd like to just bring up my opinion on a few themes that are floating through this interesting thread.

Firstly, on the idea that religion is responsible for atrocities. I will agree with this somewhat, but not wholesale. In my opinion only, and I certainly respect the other ideas that are posted here, religion is not wholly (pun intended) responsible for wars. War is always about control, and how that control can be used either for itself (Pol Pot for instance), or to garner land or wealth (Hitler for example) or many mixtures in between. Where religion enters into this I think it could more aptly be described as "propaganda," not religion as such. Religious language just happens to be strong juju for the masses which is why it is often co-opted in bellicose scenarios, but at the end of the day it really is just a tool for the propaganda machine.

Another point that is often not made in this debate is that religion, now, and throughout history, has arguably been the world's largest force for social welfare (I doubt it's even arguable, pretty sure is just a fact, but I'm too lazy to look it up). Religious institutions all over the world feed the hungry, and provide healthcare and education to the masses. The number of orphanages, schools, hospitals, and other social welfare institutions run by various religious institutions around the world is staggering.


Lastly on the point of religious people (usually Christians) being judgmental hypocrites, I get that too. They are certainly out there, they are certainly vocal, and they certainly couldn't find their butts with two hands and a map. You don't have to flip through too many channels on the TV to find these tool boxes on any given Sunday morning. However, I would posit, there are a vast majority of Christians who garner from their religion that being a Christian means that you are a broken person who doesn't always do the right thing, and that you are forgiven for it on the premise that you at least try to do a little better next time. The job is not to call other people to the carpet, but rather to be introspective about the kind of person you are and want to be. In short, don't be the aforementioned tool box, but rather look at yourself and your community and try to be a loving and decent person.


Back to the OP's original question, the religious camp I fall into is that I am a Lutheran Hindu MSDT.

 

[Freewillow]

Thank you Bob, grateful diver. I could not even dream of expressing it better than you did.

 

[dfx]

Actually, I did not claim pre-emptive punishment. Dying before the age of accountability wouldn't result in Hell, hence David's confidence he'd see his son after his own eventual death.

So it is beneficial to kill toddlers before it's too late in order to save them from hell. Abortion is an absolute evil though. Makes sense.

Just because something is in one's nature doesn't mean they don't have a choice or aren't subject to judgment and punishment. Sending a pedophile to prison is an example of how we as a society do the same thing. And original sin wasn't chosen by God but rather our ancestors.

Right, let's see what the logic here is. God creates imperfect beings who can't tell right from wrong. God also creates a trap for them, well knowing ahead of time that they would fall for it, omniscient as he is. He is then surprised and completely mad at them when they actually do fall for it and punishes them for something that he knew they would do right from the beginning, because after all, he set it all up for them. Yeah, that also makes sense.

 

[agilis]

Actually, I did not claim pre-emptive punishment. Dying before the age of accountability wouldn't result in Hell, hence David's confidence he'd see his son after his own eventual death.

Just because something is in one's nature doesn't mean they don't have a choice or aren't subject to judgment and punishment. Sending a pedophile to prison is an example of how we as a society do the same thing. And original sin wasn't chosen by God but rather our ancestors.

Original sin was chosen by our ancestors? This makes no sense. Original sin is sin with which one is born, an inherited sin. The theological concept of sin is obviously connected with God; unless there is a God whose rules are not obeyed, sin does not exist.

Original sin, inherited sin, can only be imposed by a supernatural being. A human cannot 'will' his or her descendants to be born with a divinely imposed offence.

Sin, in the final theological analysis, can only exist in the sight of God, by definition. It is not a human ascribed condition.

In any case, I see that this discussion has degenerated into arrant idiocy, with people writing ignorant nonsense like "Moses wrote Genesis"

Says who? Relying on magical holy books and subsequent doctrines dreamed up by deeply neurotic fanatics removes any possible application of logic and reason.

Some of the stuff I read coming from self-defined 'Christians' is only a half step removed from the reasoning of an Isis fanatic.

So many minds poisoned by Sunday schools and emotionally twisted relatives. That, I think, is a genuine sin in a humanistic rather than a theological context.

 

[Pavao]

...God is love; He's also righteous, perfect and holy. ...
Richard.

Have you (anyone who wants to answer) ever thought what the meaning of all of this is?

Accepting the existence of an all powerful and perfect creator of everything, believing that there was nothing and only this all powerful and perfect creator, why then would he create a world that isn't perfect to begin with? You can't blame anything for it but the only creator, after all, didn't he create everything?

What is the point in making people go through suffering first in order to make them whole later, why not just create them whole from the start?

You do have the power to create something that is perfect, but instead you create it imperfect so you can teach it lessons first in order to become(earn?) perfection later? Seems like a pointless exercise to me