Regulator Performance With Increasing Depth

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first off i don't know anything about regulators i am just reading all the post and trying to learn!!
so would this be the BOTTOM LINE ??
a balanced diaphragm 1st stage only makes breathing easier when the tank pressure drops below 400 psi..(true or false)..
most modern day 2nd stages are balanced and if not would still not have much effect on breathing above A depth of about 160 ft. (true or false)...


There are no modern unbalanced diaphragm regs that I know about; there were some double hose regs that were unbalanced diaphragm. since diaphragm first stages are upstream valves, with an unbalanced diaphragm the IP goes up as the tank empties.

So, the only unbalanced first stages currently on the market are piston regs, and the IP will drop more or less linearly over the supply range, so that if they are paired with an unbalanced 2nd stage, you will notice harder breathing as the tank pressure falls. At what pressure you notice something varies quite a bit from person to person and reg to reg, I notice my MK2/R190 getting a bit harder breathing at around 300PSI, not much before. Other regs, with different 2nd stages, it could be more like 700. Forget about the ansi breathing machine tests BS.

In terms of performance at depth, I can tell a difference between my MK2/R190 (unbalanced piston) and my higher performance regs at any depth; I've had the MK2 down to about recreational limits and it worked fine. Much more important to a first stage's performance than balancing are IP drop and recovery, which directly indicate flow rates. The MK2 does really well in those regards.

So, for recreational diving, a good quality unbalanced piston like the MK2 will do fine; of course so will a good quality balanced reg.
 
…So, the only unbalanced first stages currently on the market are piston regs, and the IP will drop more or less linearly over the supply range, so that if they are paired with an unbalanced 2nd stage, you will notice harder breathing as the tank pressure falls. ...

It may be my interpretation of the phrasing, but that is not consistent with any data I have seen — even on 40+ year old unbalanced piston first stages. Your "drop more or less linearly over the supply range" is technically true of all regulator designs, if you have sensitive enough instruments to find it. However, it is misleading since the drop is within the operating range of the second stage.

The static outlet pressure/IP on an unbalanced piston is well within typical tolerances down to near the IP (200 PSI range). Dynamic IPs (the drop during periods of demand) are in tolerance down to the 500-600 PSI range. Balanced diaphragm and flow-through piston first stages are better suited to maintaining flow rates at relatively low inlet pressures for the same size package, often down to the actual IP (above bottom pressure).

Also, paring with a balanced or unbalanced second stage is irrelevant. An unbalanced second stage is capable of delivering equally low inhalation resistance at a given flow rate as a balanced. The engineering limitation is the force required to actuate the demand valve is higher (other factors remaining the same), which is usually produced by a larger diameter diaphragm.

What matters are flow rates supported by a particular valve. Valves with lower flow resistance, usually in the form of larger ports and hoses, can be much less sensitive to variations in IP drop. A second stage regulator can easily be designed that delivers consistent inhalation resistance (at a given flow rate) with a supply pressure or IP from a much lower pressure like 60 PSI through a much higher pressure like 250 PSI. The diaphragm may be 6" in diameter and the LP hose may be ½" ID, but the specs can easily be met.

Basically the spring pressure holding the downstream valve shut is dictated by the high-end and the diaphragm size is dictated by the low pressure end plus the force required to overcome the spring. It can also be done with a partially balanced piston design. The spring force reduction can't be reduced quite as much as with a narrower inlet operating range, and the diaphragm can be reduced (all other factors remaining constant), but the minimum hose size would not change.
 
Delete..... it ain't worth it.....(and Halocline was dealing with it while I wrote this)

first off i don't know anything about regulators i am just reading all the post and trying to learn!! )...

Then you should read this RE: First stages- Mr. Encyclopedia, DA Aquamaster wrote this thread a few years ago and IMO should be a sticky.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/regulators/197974-diaphram-vs-piston-regs.html


....a balanced diaphragm 1st stage only makes breathing easier when the tank pressure drops below 400 psi..(true or false)..
False, Balanced piston or diaphragm, the purpose is to maintain an even intermediate pressure (that's the pressure leaving the first stage and available at the second stage) as the tank pressure decreases.

most modern day 2nd stages are balanced.
Probably not.

and if not would still not have much effect on breathing above A depth of about 160 ft. (true or false)...

That is mostly true, but depends on whether the first stage is balanced or not. But know this. Given a choice between: #1) Balanced first & unbalanced second vs. #2 unbalanced first & balanced second, go with #2.

c
 
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It may be my interpretation of the phrasing, but that is not consistent with any data I have seen — even on 40+ year old unbalanced piston first stages. Your "drop more or less linearly over the supply range" is technically true of all regulator designs....


Also, paring with a balanced or unbalanced second stage is irrelevant. An unbalanced second stage is capable of delivering equally low inhalation resistance at a given flow rate as a balanced.

Sorry, but you're wrong again, on both points. It's really simple; in the case of the unbalanced piston first stage, the supply pressure is pushing on the seat, trying to open it. IP is the force required to keep it closed. IP must overcome both the spring and the supply pressure on the seat. As that supply pressure drops, so does IP. The spring pressure remains the same, so the only variable is the amount of air pressure on the seat, and that's directly related to the pressure in the tank. 3000 PSI, lets say for argument .01 sq" seat size, that's 30lbs of force. With a half tank, 1500 PSI, the force is 15 lbs, and that's actually what the IP drop would be with that size seat. In actuality, the seat size is a little smaller to limit the amount of IP drop, but it does occur linearly, whether or not you think so.

BTW, this is not true of all designs, only unbalanced "flow-through" pistons like the MK2. Unbalanced diaphragm regs are upstream, so the IP rises as supply pressure falls.

The bit about the 2nd stage not making a difference in how this IP drop affects breathing is, of course, wrong as well. Balanced 2nds are, by design, less affected by IP drop, (thats the basic reason they're balanced) because the balance chamber contains air at IP. When IP drops, so does the pressure in the balance chamber, which of course lowers the cracking effort.

I'm surprised that someone with as much of an interest and vocabulary in regulators as you apparently have is not understanding these pretty basic concepts.
 
Sorry, but you're wrong again, on both points. It's really simple; in the case of the unbalanced piston first stage, the supply pressure is pushing on the seat, trying to open it. IP is the force required to keep it closed. IP must overcome both the spring and the supply pressure on the seat. As that supply pressure drops, so does IP. The spring pressure remains the same, so the only variable is the amount of air pressure on the seat, and that's directly related to the pressure in the tank. 3000 PSI, lets say for argument .01 sq" seat size, that's 30lbs of force. With a half tank, 1500 PSI, the force is 15 lbs, and that's actually what the IP drop would be with that size seat. In actuality, the seat size is a little smaller to limit the amount of IP drop, but it does occur linearly, whether or not you think so…

I did not write that there was no change, only that the change is within an acceptable tolerance (operating range).
…Your "drop more or less linearly over the supply range" is technically true of all regulator designs, if you have sensitive enough instruments to find it. However, it is misleading since the drop is within the operating range of the second stage…

I happen have an unbalanced first stage apart on my bench at the moment, which has been on working dives below 1200' for months at a time. The port diameter at the seat is 0.78" in diameter. Therefore, the pneumatic force is 1.434 Lbs at 300 PSI and 14.335 Lbs at 3000 PSI or a delta P of 12.901 PSI. This is well within tolerance of most second stages on the market — typically 135 PSI ± 10 PSI. When this first stage is properly tuned, it delivers 135 PSI ± about 6.5 PSI over that inlet range.

All this might be relevant if the high or low IP within the operating range directly correlated to respiratory work loads, but it doesn't. The change in inhalation work load is numerically negligible over the design IP range and is imperceptible by humans.

The problem is you appear to actually take superficial marketing drivel at face value. The reality is that static IP is a meaningless predictor of dynamic inhalation resistance under a work load. It is just easy to measure static IP with primitive bench instruments, which may be a reason for the misguided fixation.

Dynamic IP is also marginally relevant. Inhalation resistance through-out the entire respiratory cycle, at depth, and under maximum work load is what counts. Perhaps that is why virtually every major regulator manufacturer in the world has invested a quarter million dollars or more on an Ansti breathing machine for their engineering department? It is not that marketing hype has no basis in science; it is just simplified to the point, some might say intentionally, that it obfuscates and implies performance benefits that are not justified.

… The bit about the 2nd stage not making a difference in how this IP drop affects breathing is, of course, wrong as well. Balanced 2nds are, by design, less affected by IP drop, (thats the basic reason they're balanced) because the balance chamber contains air at IP. When IP drops, so does the pressure in the balance chamber, which of course lowers the cracking effort...

I did not write that is does not make a theoretical difference. What I wrote is it does not make a practical difference on modern regulators since they can be optimized with many techniques beyond balancing. BTW, the primary practical reason for balancing is peak flow rates, which can indirectly be reflected in IP variations. Secondarily, is performance at the very low range of inlet pressure is far better. However, this seemingly desirable characteristic is potentially dangerous since virtually no warning is provided that cylinder pressure has dropped to the IP.

What matters is how much energy must be expended to breath throughout the operating depth range under maximum work loads, not the mechanics to get there. There is irrefutable evidence that there are dozens of engineering solutions to archive the same goal; as evidenced by years of quantitative data produced by test labs for the EU, the world's Navies, and development engineers — in and outside of the Scuba industry.

The world's navies and commercial diving industry do not choose demand regulator technology without valid reasons. They would be delighted to use a high-production and cheap regulator if it met their requirements. Since you insist on ignoring the most relevant qualitative performance data available, then perhaps you should wonder why they consistently spend 4-8x more than for a top of the line Scuba product — especially when the dominant products are unbalanced.

Regulator design cannot be reduced to simple arithmetic. Decades of computer modeling, fluid dynamics analysis, finite element analysis, prototypes, and testing has produced many different designs that easily exceed the needs of advanced recreational divers. I am not a regulator engineer (thankfully), but I have had the privilege of working on several projects with some very capable ones. My task was to help them appreciate some unique demands of the application, test models, and help analyze the results. I am far from expert, but I don’t entirely lack qualifications or real-world experience.
 
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Boys are intimidated by the concept of a larger diaphragm and only the theory of work of breathing whilst down there.

Time to fill the hole and go vintage foruming.
 

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