Regulator Performance With Increasing Depth

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Personally I notice a big increase in WOB anything below 40-45m, depends on a lot of other factors but there's certainly a difference for me using Apeks XTX50s - not seriously hard, but there's definitely a noticeable difference…

Increased respiratory work load on air at 140'+ is quite noticeable even in a dry decompression chamber or free-flow air helmet where regulator performance is not a factor. Moving denser gas in and out of your lungs is the culprit. Inhalation and exhalation resistance of modern regulators are just about as low as they can go well below 200', without getting annoying due to excessive freeflow on the inhalation side.

It may be interesting to note that the lowest resistance regulator on the market is the Kirby-Morgan SuperFlow which uses a balanced flow-through piston first stage and an unbalanced second stage with dial-a-breath. The advantage of a balanced second stage is the diaphragm size, and therefore the entire regulator, can be reduced; not decreased inhalation resistance.

Kirby Morgan Dive Systems | Products | Full Face Mask Regulators
 
LTSD,

You've got it correct DIY Brother (and you articulated it rather well)......now go back and sort out Mr. Blue.

c
 
\ The advantage of a balanced second stage is the diaphragm size, and therefore the entire regulator, can be reduced; not decreased inhalation resistance.

How does balancing or lack thereof affect the possible size of the diaphragm?

The advantages of a balanced 2nd stage are:
1. Lighter spring pressure, which results in less seat imprinting while in storage.
2. Greater tolerance of IP shifts without affecting cracking effort.
3. Theoretically lower effort required to keep the valve open (IOW inhalation resistance, after the initial cracking effort) due to the drop in IP in the balance chamber.

The 2nd stage diaphragm size has nothing to do the issue of balancing. There are large and small balanced and unbalanced 2nd stages.
 
LeadTurnSD, your understanding seems excellent to me so far.
 
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well here I am, feel free to straighten me out. :D

The only thing stated incorrectly was the Over Balanced "2nd Stage". There is no such thing I am aware of.

I see where your confusion comes from and I should have worded the information differently to prevent that but the first two statements are accurate from all the post in the thread.
 
How does balancing or lack thereof affect the possible size of the diaphragm?

The advantages of a balanced 2nd stage are:
1. Lighter spring pressure, which results in less seat imprinting while in storage.
2. Greater tolerance of IP shifts without affecting cracking effort.
3. Theoretically lower effort required to keep the valve open (IOW inhalation resistance, after the initial cracking effort) due to the drop in IP in the balance chamber.

The 2nd stage diaphragm size has nothing to do the issue of balancing. There are large and small balanced and unbalanced 2nd stages.

More correctly, it is a pneumatically balanced second stage demand valve. Look at the exploded view of a balanced second stage and you will see that a pneumatic piston aided by a mechanical spring provides the total force to close the upstream valve. Because a significant percentage of the total force is counterbalanced by the piston, the additional force required of the spring is less. The diaphragm needs to generate sufficient force to compress the spring only, therefore the surface area of the diaphragm can be reduced.

In an unbalanced second stage, all of the force required to keep the valve shut must be exerted by the spring. Likewise, all of the force required to force the valve open must be generated by the diaphragm. More force = larger diaphragm area. Notice the difference in diaphragm sizes of balanced and unbalanced second stages on the market. I believe you will find a clear delineation.

Balancing was initially used to decrease inhalation resistance without increasing diaphragm size. Assisted by breathing machines, sensitive electronic pressure transducers, and fluid mechanics computer modeling software engineers were able to tune both designs to perform optimally, but determined that the smaller balanced diaphragm was a feature consumers were willing to pay for.

Study performance graphs of regulators made in the last 20 years from Ansti breathing machines. You will find a negligible difference in second stage performance as long as the IP pressure is constant — balanced or unbalanced.

Balanced first stages provide a more constant IP pressure at tank pressure below ~400 PSI, but there is not much difference above that. As noted in my first post, the best performing second stage on the market is unbalanced.

Item 1:
The force to keep the second stage demand valve closed is essentially the same with a balanced or unbalanced second stage. This statement is true when the regulator is not pressurized, which is the vast majority of the time, but not while it is in operation.

In practice, I have some 20+ year old unbalanced second stages that have never required seat replacement and still pass the bubble leak test. I have stored some regulators for long periods with the diaphragm depressed, but have not noticed much difference because the seat life is so long anyway.

Item 2:
All other engineering parameters being equal, this may be true, but they are not. The engineering team determines the required IP range and designs the valve so it will close the valve at the high end of the IP while delivering low enough inhalation resistance at low IP to meet the design objective.

Item 3:
I do not believe this is correct. The force is the same. If your hypothesis was correct, it would show on the inhalation curves on breathing machine print-outs, which for practical purposed does not. Theoretically, the friction of additional o-rings on the balancing piston would decrease response and increase cracking pressure. True as this may be, it is not high enough to have a meaningful effect unless the regulator is in terrible need of maintenance.
 
well here I am, feel free to straighten me out. :D

The only thing stated incorrectly was the Over Balanced "2nd Stage". There is no such thing I am aware of.

I see where your confusion comes from and I should have worded the information differently to prevent that but the first two statements are accurate from all the post in the thread.

Hallmac,

Thanks for popping in, and no "straightening" necessary, I really enjoy your posts!

The reasons I started a new thread was that I didn't want to sidetrack the other thread for what I was pretty sure was a typo or simple goof in your post, and I also couldn't think of a good way to word a response or question to your post in that thread that would not sound confrontational or smug... but I think I ended up doing exactly what I was trying to avoid by directly quoting the section of your post I had a question about.

Sorry, that was NOT my intent at all :depressed:

Your post just created questions because I'm still trying to "wrap my mind around" some of these regulator performance concepts.

Best wishes.
 
No worries mate, that is why I love this forum so much, the correct information will work it's way out.

Just because something sounds so simple in my head does not mean I communicate it correctly. Especially if I rush the post. I much prefer a clear representation of the information over one that could be misconstrued. The post obviously needed to be clearer and a brain fart removed.

Feel free to point out anything I post that adds to confusion. I like to see this board remain a great place to get the correct information.
 
Look at the exploded view of a balanced second stage and you will see that a pneumatic piston aided by a mechanical spring provides the total force to close the upstream valve. Because a significant percentage of the total force is counterbalanced by the piston, the additional force required of the spring is less. The diaphragm needs to generate sufficient force to compress the spring only, therefore the surface area of the diaphragm can be reduced.

In an unbalanced second stage, all of the force required to keep the valve shut must be exerted by the spring. Likewise, all of the force required to force the valve open must be generated by the diaphragm. More force = larger diaphragm area. Notice the difference in diaphragm sizes of balanced and unbalanced second stages on the market. I believe you will find a clear delineation.


Balanced first stages provide a more constant IP pressure at tank pressure below ~400 PSI, but there is not much difference above that. As noted in my first post, the best performing second stage on the market is unbalanced.


The force to keep the second stage demand valve closed is essentially the same with a balanced or unbalanced second stage. This statement is true when the regulator is not pressurized, which is the vast majority of the time, but not while it is in operation.

I wish I knew how to separate quotes, it would make this response easier to read. Basically, you're wrong about everything that I excerpted above. I put a few highlights in bold. Despite your use of nifty terms like "pneumatic piston" you don't seem to have a basic understanding of how 2nd stages work.

1. It's a downstream valve, not upstream. The diaphragm pushes against the lever, which then pulls the poppet off the seat. This is the same whether it's balanced or unbalanced. In a balanced barrel poppet design, the lever is working against the spring and the air pressure in the balance chamber. There's no less force on the lever (and therefore diaphragm) in a balanced reg, except for the drop in IP in the balance chamber which I noted in my post. Again, there are both large and small balanced and unbalanced 2nd stages; balancing has nothing to do with the size of the diaphragm. You can dispute this all you want, but it's a plain fact. Just in scubapro, you have the R190 and G250V, both larger diaphragms, and the R380 and S600, both smaller, unbalanced and balanced respectively.

2. All the force required to open the valve must be generated by the diaphragm movement in all 2nd stages. How else do you imagine they open?

3. The "best performing" 2nd stage is a subjective statement. The best performing 2nd stage I've ever used is a coaxial valve balanced design, SP D300. (Or converted pilot) You're going to have a hard time finding a significant number of divers who agree that the best performing 2nd stage ever is unbalanced.

4. This one is really bizarre, although I guess you're just confusing pressurized with non-pressurized. An unbalanced reg uses a much heavier spring; therefore when the reg is not pressurized, there's more force against the seat, and consequently more wear in storage, all other things equal, than a balanced reg. The balanced reg has a light spring which is, as you put it, assisted by "pneumatic piston". When the reg is not pressurized, obviously your pneumatic piston isn't pushing against the seat.

In fact, just as I said, this is one of the fundamental advantages IMO of a balanced 2nd stage. It's what the "seat saver" functions of the S600 and atomic 2nd stages are based on.

Sorry to pick apart your post, but as I said, you seem to be confusing some pretty basic things about 2nd stage function.
 
This discussion is getting into areas that I actually hoped it would. Thanks all!!

Again, I'm testing my own understanding regarding function of the 2nd stage (balanced versus unbalanced).

1. Unbalanced: As we are discussing, the demand valve spring is 100% responsible for creating the "seating force" necessary to seal the valve.

2. Balanced: Some air (passing through a small hole in the LP seat and poppet and into the "balance chamber") is used to provide a back-pressure that helps close the valve.

Edit: I'd written a long, rambling explanation, went cross-eyed when I came back and re-read it, and deleted it!! Here is a shorter version :D

Balanced 2nd's should provide slightly improved performance over unbalanced due to the lighter spring... but I'm thinking that this is experienced as somewhat "smoother" air delivery, not necessarily "easier" breathing. If cracking effort is set the same (say about 1.3" for example), both 2nd will start to flow air with the same inhalation effort.

Where the balanced reg seems to have an advantage is as the demand lever continues to compress the spring and open the valve all the way: It is moving against a lower spring force to open the valve the rest of the way.

Where I get confused is that the opening of the valve in a balanced 2nd is still opposed by the balancing force of the air passing into the balance chamber; this balancing force is adding to the force of the "lighter" spring, taking away some of that advantage.... but maybe I'm missing part of the picture.

Subjectively, I've been able to perform side-by-side tests of balanced and unbalanced regs with almost identical cracking effort on the same dive.... the balanced reg does not really breath "easier", but does feel just slightly "smoother", if that makes sense.

Best wishes.
 
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https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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