Regulator Help, Leak

[rsingler]

Stand by for an announcement from @Zef
@rsingler is an idiot.

Hint: grab the 2-024 oring from the kit. When that fixes the problem, I'll send you a replacement so your service kit is complete again. It's the least I can do.

 

[rsingler]

Oh! Looks like @Zef has signed off.
Well, he politely pointed out by PM that I was looking at the wrong end of the reg, lol!
And he's absolutely right. The tapered cap with the anti-icing fins is the turret end, not the diaphragm end. In the Deep6, this whole end of the reg is a balance chamber.

So this is a whole different animal, and an easy fix.
My apologies @rob.mwpropane !
Just unscrew the cap and replace the 2-024 oring from your kit with a little lube on it.
It's such a big oring that it's easy to accidentally twist as you place it. Or perhaps a little dust is trapped under the big oring somewhere on the periphery. Or maybe it's caught on the last thread of the cap.
The reason it performs differently with slow opening vs. slam opening is that the gentle rise in IP with slow opening preserves the position of the oring and whatever channel is allowing it to leak. A slam opening and abrupt IP jump pops the oring into place and since it's a soft 70 duro, it conforms to the crack between the two parts and maybe performs better. In any case, the "pop" is the shift in position of the o-ring.

When that fixes the problem, PM me with your address and I'll send you a replacement 2-024 for your kit.
I owe you that much for my hurried mistake in ID'ing the orientation of the reg body!

If that doesn't fix it, open it up again and inspect the land on both halves where that oring seals for a scratch or imperfection. Or maybe do this before you replace the 2-024.

Thank you, @Zef !!!
Attention to detail!

 

[Centrals]

Should there be a thrust washer as well?
I am thinking of Apeks DST(the turret side).

 

[rsingler]

Should there be a thrust washer as well?
I am thinking of Apeks DST(the turret side).

Nope. Not with this design. The thin rim on both sides clamps the diaphragm.
But the turret DOES have a thrust washer. Look at the diagram above, right next to the 024 N70

 

[Centrals]

Nope. Not with this design. The thin rim on both sides clamps the diaphragm.
But the turret DOES have a thrust washer. Look at the diagram above, right next to the 024 N70

Same as Apeks DST.
Thank you.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

Oh! Looks like @Zef has signed off.
Well, he politely pointed out by PM that I was looking at the wrong end of the reg, lol!
And he's absolutely right. The tapered cap with the anti-icing fins is the turret end, not the diaphragm end. In the Deep6, this whole end of the reg is a balance chamber.

So this is a whole different animal, and an easy fix.
My apologies @rob.mwpropane !
Just unscrew the cap and replace the 2-024 oring from your kit with a little lube on it.
It's such a big oring that it's easy to accidentally twist as you place it. Or perhaps a little dust is trapped under the big oring somewhere on the periphery. Or maybe it's caught on the last thread of the cap.
The reason it performs differently with slow opening vs. slam opening is that the gentle rise in IP with slow opening preserves the position of the oring and whatever channel is allowing it to leak. A slam opening and abrupt IP jump pops the oring into place and since it's a soft 70 duro, it conforms to the crack between the two parts and maybe performs better. In any case, the "pop" is the shift in position of the o-ring.

When that fixes the problem, PM me with your address and I'll send you a replacement 2-024 for your kit.
I owe you that much for my hurried mistake in ID'ing the orientation of the reg body!

If that doesn't fix it, open it up again and inspect the land on both halves where that oring seals for a scratch or imperfection. Or maybe do this before you replace the 2-024.

Thank you, @Zef !!!
Attention to detail!

I really appreciate your willingness to help!

I did exactly as you suggested and mentioned it in post #6, although I didn't say which o ring it was. I swapped it out and added some christolube to it. This may have caused it to leak slightly less (or maybe it was in my head), but the video was after swapping this o ring.

When I 1st took things apart it felt like the swivel and HP chamber were loose, so I tightened it and put things back together...no go. Then I took it apart and swapped the o ring, that didn't do it.

I should have taken some pictures, but I couldn't see anything on either 1/2 that would cause there to be a leak. I'm stumped.

 

[halocline]

This might be a stupid idea, but have you tried other regulators on that tank, and have you tried this regulator on a different tank? Just to eliminate any chance that it's something in the tank valve. When you first described it, it sounded like the DIN o-ring or DIN fitting might not be sealing well. Since you tried a different fitting with a different o-ring, including the o-ring that seals the DIN fitting to the reg body, and the leak wasn't fixed, that's probably not it.

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would try is another reg on the tank, if that works, then reattach the problem reg and open the valve slowly enough to get the leak going, then submerge it. It might be hard to see exactly where the leak is coming from, but it might help.

You said the IP is 'rock solid'. I assume you mean during the leak and when it's not leaking? Unless you have already done so, just check to see if the IP is the same. If not, (meaning IP drops during the leak) then the leak is from the IP chamber. If the IP is unaffected by the leak, then you know it's coming from the HP chamber, i.e. upstream of the seat/orifice. If the IP rises during the leak, you have a leak at either the seat/orifice or the balance chamber o-ring.

I'm sure you will send this reg back, but since you just took a class in regulator service, this is an excellent opportunity to develop your skills. Finding a leak is not that difficult once you really understand the airflow and start eliminating the possibilities.

 

[rhwestfall]

You said the IP is 'rock solid'. I assume you mean during the leak and when it's not leaking? Unless you have already done so, just check to see if the IP is the same. If not, (meaning IP drops during the leak) then the leak is from the IP chamber. If the IP is unaffected by the leak, then you know it's coming from the HP chamber, i.e. upstream of the seat/orifice. If the IP rises during the leak, you have a leak at either the seat/orifice or the balance chamber o-ring.

Fantastic diagnostic narrative!

 

[rob.mwpropane]

This might be a stupid idea, but have you tried other regulators on that tank, and have you tried this regulator on a different tank? Just to eliminate any chance that it's something in the tank valve. When you first described it, it sounded like the DIN o-ring or DIN fitting might not be sealing well. Since you tried a different fitting with a different o-ring, including the o-ring that seals the DIN fitting to the reg body, and the leak wasn't fixed, that's probably not it.

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would try is another reg on the tank, if that works, then reattach the problem reg and open the valve slowly enough to get the leak going, then submerge it. It might be hard to see exactly where the leak is coming from, but it might help.

You said the IP is 'rock solid'. I assume you mean during the leak and when it's not leaking? Unless you have already done so, just check to see if the IP is the same. If not, (meaning IP drops during the leak) then the leak is from the IP chamber. If the IP is unaffected by the leak, then you know it's coming from the HP chamber, i.e. upstream of the seat/orifice. If the IP rises during the leak, you have a leak at either the seat/orifice or the balance chamber o-ring.

I'm sure you will send this reg back, but since you just took a class in regulator service, this is an excellent opportunity to develop your skills. Finding a leak is not that difficult once you really understand the airflow and start eliminating the possibilities.

Sorry, long weekend. I did try other regulators on the tank (not a stupid idea at all, rules out the tank). I did not try the reg on a different tank. Getting the reg to leak and getting underwater would have at least zero'd in a little better.

I did not check the ip while the tank was leaking, just while I had the valve opened and the leak stopped, that's a great point though about testing would say where it's coming from.

This reg did get sent back. I had a long busy weekend ahead (on Friday) and knew it would be a while before I could "play" with things again. I decided Friday afternoon to box it up and send it out while on our way out the door to go camping / diving, so it should be getting to them shortly. Hopefully they'll tell me what's going on.... we'll see.

Thanks everyone who tried to help. At least I was somewhat on the right track. I just don't know how much more of my time I was willing to give up to try and fix a brand new reg. I will come back and update this thread if I find anything out, and let you know when they send it back.

Thanks, and happy 4th!!!!



Edit: just to clarify, I wasn't trying to bad mouth the manf., I just figured we (or at least I) could all learn from the issue in a diaphragm reg. I don't expect every car off the line to be perfect, just like every reg off the line to be. I still really like my regs and have absolutely nothing but the best to say about the manf. And again, they're willing to stand behind it 100%, I was just trying to learn. I will buy more from them in the future without hesitation. I have my kids diving these regs.

 

[Couv]

IMHO Re a diaphragm regulator. It is always good practice to do a quick check of the hp sealing components when the low pressure side is removed-as in the case to replace the -024 o-ring. Simply position the first stage body on a tank so that the diaphragm is facing up. Remove the diaphragm and any thrust washers. Turn on the air and apply a few drops of water in the chamber. If there is a leak somewhere in the hp side you will see bubbling. This takes all of 2 minutes to accomplish and can save you all sorts of time later (not to mention hair.)

See @rsingler 's post linked below for more information (skip to post #3 for the meat):
How to cure IP creep in a Diaphragm First Stage