redundant air at less than 30'?

[Nemrod]

All the people that got killed can't talk about their experience. I know a few people that were probably saved by air bags and also definitely by pony bottles. And I also know people that have died diving, who didn't have a pony bottle and we wonder if it might have made a difference.

I am not much into anecdotal evidence. It is unprovable and of no value.

Snorkel or free divers, should they carry a pony at 15 feet, 30 feet, 60 feet, 90 feet?

I am sorry so many of your friends have met unfortunate endings, such things are always terribly sad and painful for loved ones left guessing and wondering and hurting.:depressed:

N

 

[Darnold9999]

Friend of a friend died diving entangled in kelp. Don't know the precise details as this was 30 years ago but I have a very healthy respect for kelp and the risk of entanglement as a result.

Personally I always have a pony solo (don't really care about the depth), and would be/am extremely cautious around kelp. Something goes wrong and you have to surface through the canopy - it takes very little to snag your tank valves and make it impossible to surface on a single breath. Diving in kelp requires a specific mind set and panic or near panic as you are running out of air is exactly the wrong way to deal with it.

Don't know the kelp in your area so you have to make your own call but I want to be able to swim out and then surface. Might not do it, but I want to have the choice.

 

[Darnold9999]

The fact that someone survived doing something dangerous does not make it safe and IMHO is not a good argument for doing that something. It just means someone beat the odds. Someone else didn't but they are not here to present their point of view.

By the same token just because someone says something is dangerous doesn't make it dangerous either.

Personally I believe that diving is nowhere near as dangerous as some make it out to be.

However in my mind the extremely slight risk that I will end up under the water with nothing to breath can be mitigated with the low cost (in terms of $ and inconvenience) of a small pony. So I carry a small pony on all solo dives - costs almost nothing compared to all the other $ I spend to dive.

You need to do your own risk/reward calculations based on the dives you do, your skill level, comfort in the water... etc. and make you own decision. The problem is that until you have lots of experience it is hard to make that calculation so I suggest that you err on the side of caution.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I am not much into anecdotal evidence. It is unprovable and of no value.

Snorkel or free divers, should they carry a pony at 15 feet, 30 feet, 60 feet, 90 feet?

I am sorry so many of your friends have met unfortunate endings, such things are always terribly sad and painful for loved ones left guessing and wondering and hurting.:depressed:

N

You say pony bottles are not needed. I say I personally know a few people who said they would have died without a pony bottle. Your response: my evidence is anecdotal, unprovable and of no value..

 

[DCBC]

You say pony bottles are not needed. I say I personally know a few people who said they would have died without a pony bottle. Your response: my evidence is anecdotal, unprovable and of no value..

I haven't been diving as long as Captain, but have 45 years experience, 38 of them as a professional diver. I too haven't had many of the bells and whistles in years gone by, but back then, we didn't have a choice. You dove with the gear you had.

Looking at recreational diving today, diver's do not need to possess the in-water competence or quantity / same level of instruction to be certified and are equipment dependent. That may not be the best way of preparing a diver, as far as the older divers are concerned, but it is the way it is overall.

There are instructors like Thal and myself that train to a similar standard as in the past. There are divers trained today that possess a high level of in-water ability, confidence and skill, but by-and-large, the diver today is a different animal that he was in the past.

That said, I believe that back-up systems increase safety and increase the pleasure many of us experience in diving. Personally, I welcome these systems and believe if someone is diving beyond his/her free-ascent target depth (FATD) they should have redundant gas. I never thought about this much until several years ago, when I found myself without gas 150' from the decompression bottles. This was several years ago and I have changed the way I dive to accommodate such a reoccurrence.

We each have the freedom to choose the equipment we use during a dive and have to live or die with our choice. No one should second guess it unless it's our Buddy.

 

[captain]

Maybe one day I'll post my philosophy on life and death and that will explain why I live my life and dive as I do.

 

[Meister481]

I don't think kelp is likely to keep you from the surface, but it can sure make moving ON the surface very difficult. It's so easy to carry a redundant gas source that I can't think of a good reason not to do it, especially if you are diving under what can be a heavy kelp canopy. It's so much nicer to submerge and swim UNDER the kelp than to crawl in it.

That's not DIR...lol. I guess we should all know the hazards of the environment and plan accordingly.

I had a second-stage hose crack, causing the reg to free-flow out of control at 70 feet. I ran out of air before reaching the surface and did the 20-foot safety stop on my buddy's octo.

I've also had an OMS wing fail near the beginning of a dive. Despite being weighted properly it was a bit of work getting to the surface and then staying afloat on the surface without additional buoyancy (an SMB). I can't imagine having to do a CESA even from 30 feet with an empty wing bladder and no breath.

While soloing I've had compasses fail, depth gauges fail, dive computes fail... all with only 300 dives.

These experiences were enough for me to always use redundancy when soloing, no matter the depth.

Edit: I'm a doctor, I can afford quality gear and I kep it well-maintained. It's not like I'm using second-hand gear that's in poor condition.

If I was a scuba manufacturer, I would want you as a test diver to evaluate new gear since you seem to break just about anything. It's amazing to see the state of some gear that comes in for service, sad really. Then the customer wonders why it failed. Not saying this is the case with you, but there must be a reason it's failing. Do you have good life insurance? Does your wife know where you keep it? Maybe the shop you use isn't good with service?

I guess the question is how did we survive this long. Drove cars without seat belts, air bags and anti lock brakes, rode bicycles and motorcycles without helmets, dived without octos, BC's SPG's. Amazing

I wish I grew up during that time period, things were so much simpler. Now everyone needs to be spoon fed specific instructions on how to do everything and then want to sue over nothing. There are still those among us who strive to capture a little bit of that adventurous time when men were men, and sheep were nervous. All that's REQUIRED to dive is a mask and an air source, the rest is for giggles.

I haven't been diving as long as Captain, but have 45 years experience, 38 of them as a professional diver. I too haven't had many of the bells and whistles in years gone by, but back then, we didn't have a choice. You dove with the gear you had.

Looking at recreational diving today, diver's do not need to possess the in-water competence or quantity / same level of instruction to be certified and are equipment dependent. That may not be the best way of preparing a diver, as far as the older divers are concerned, but it is the way it is overall.

There are instructors like Thal and myself that train to a similar standard as in the past. There are divers trained today that possess a high level of in-water ability, confidence and skill, but by-and-large, the diver today is a different animal that he was in the past.

That said, I believe that back-up systems increase safety and increase the pleasure many of us experience in diving. Personally, I welcome these systems and believe if someone is diving beyond his/her free-ascent target depth (FATD) they should have redundant gas. I never thought about this much until several years ago, when I found myself without gas 150' from the decompression bottles. This was several years ago and I have changed the way I dive to accommodate such a reoccurrence.

We each have the freedom to choose the equipment we use during a dive and have to live or die with our choice. No one should second guess it unless it's our Buddy.

Everyone calls me crazy for trying to develop a no mount system for cave diving, but I'm still doing it. I suppose those of us who realize we are accountable to ourselves and our family are the ones who choose to do things outside of the main stream. And no, I don't carry a pony bottle while diving. Doubles are my usual fare, and if no/side mounting, there are plenty of bottles to be had. The pony bottle gets handed to students for deep/intro tech dives and it sits in the truck to fill tires. I loan it out quite often for those who request it.

On the other hand, should you screw up and die the rest of us are here to take the heat for your mistake. Remember that as well. I consider the repercussions of my actions before I undertake any action that might screw it up for someone else. It only takes one idiot to close a dive site, one idiot for the lawmakers to outlaw something I love to do. Don't be that idiot!

If there's an inherent risk of screwing it up for someone else, plan accordingly. Otherwise we will be discussing your demise out in the general area, where the trolls lie. The discussion will quickly turn into solo bashing, and the rest of us will have a tarnished reputation due to the solo diver who didn't plan properly. You'll be dead so it won't affect you, but the rest of us will just shake our heads and use you as a pariah of what not to do during a solo dive. We might even name a "Solo Divers Guide to Survival" in your honor and tell your tale for generations to come. Or not.

 

[Meister481]

Maybe one day I'll post my philosophy on life and death and that will explain why I live my life and dive as I do.

Don't bother, if they don't understand it now, they never will get it. Wasted effort.

 

[DCBC]

Everyone calls me crazy for trying to develop a no mount system for cave diving, but I'm still doing it. I suppose those of us who realize we are accountable to ourselves and our family are the ones who choose to do things outside of the main stream. And no, I don't carry a pony bottle while diving. Doubles are my usual fare, and if no/side mounting, there are plenty of bottles to be had. The pony bottle gets handed to students for deep/intro tech dives and it sits in the truck to fill tires. I loan it out quite often for those who request it.

On the other hand, should you screw up and die the rest of us are here to take the heat for your mistake. Remember that as well. I consider the repercussions of my actions before I undertake any action that might screw it up for someone else. It only takes one idiot to close a dive site, one idiot for the lawmakers to outlaw something I love to do. Don't be that idiot!

If there's an inherent risk of screwing it up for someone else, plan accordingly. Otherwise we will be discussing your demise out in the general area, where the trolls lie. The discussion will quickly turn into solo bashing, and the rest of us will have a tarnished reputation due to the solo diver who didn't plan properly. You'll be dead so it won't affect you, but the rest of us will just shake our heads and use you as a pariah of what not to do during a solo dive. We might even name a "Solo Divers Guide to Survival" in your honor and tell your tale for generations to come. Or not.

You referenced my last post with the aforementioned statement. I haven't mentioned Pony Bottles in this post and have absolutely NO idea what your talking about. What's your point?

 

[Meister481]

You referenced my last post with the aforementioned statement. I haven't mentioned Pony Bottles in this post and have absolutely NO idea what your talking about. What's your point?

Yes, I did preference your last post because of the last sentence is what I consider proper in this discussion. The rest is my own thoughts about personal responsibility with regard to the original question posed by the OP. This is a bulletin board, and free thinking is allowed regardless if it's understood by you or not. No offense intended.

How about the cliff notes version? Do as you wish, but if you screw up and die the rest of us will have to deal with the mess you made.