redundancy or failure point?????

[NAM001]

i CANT ANSWER THAT ?. i GOT A GOOD DEAL ON A PAIR OF 50's WITH MANIFOLD AND BANDS. oops sorry for the caps, I have not yet had a chance to use them yet but will this upcoming year. sorry

regards

Sorry to side track, I have been looking for compatible bands to set up doubles using 50s, what make of commercial bands have you found or are you having them custom made?

 

[Kharon]

YOUR FIRST If youare sharing air you are deeling with emergencies as a buddy and not a solo diver.

I may start a dive solo but might need to assist another diver who is in the water independant of me. Everything in my setup facilitates that.

YOUR SECOND Why whould you not have an octo. One should not have to reconfig your regs to switch from buddy to solo.

First, I would not have an octo because there is absolutely no reason to have one. Second, switch what????? I always carry my pony - solo or with a buddy. Solo, I need an independant redundant air source. While buddy diving, passing an independant, redundant air source to an OOA diver is always preferable to sharing air. You are not tied together and so can ascend independantly - much easier than a face to face ascent, bumping into each other. An uncontrolled ascent by one (OOA diver panics) would not endanger both divers. Both divers have plenty of air, even at the end of a dive. and on and on ...

YOUR THIRD There are regs that continously have 1st stage leeking.

Then those regs are a piece of garbage and I would never use, let alone buy, one. They are defective and should be repaired or tossed. Out of curiosity - which regs are you making this claim about - used ones you own? new ones? what brands? I think you're blowing some smoke here.

nothing on other non contributing comments

Actually, I thought they were quite contributing. When confronted with an area of knowledge/skill I have no experience or training in I seek the input of people who have that expertise rather than floundering around and making mistakes trying to figure it out for myself. I don't have the ego that requres me to re-invent the wheel or think that I don't need help. In SCUBA blind experimentation in order to learn, and encountering the unavoiadable mistakes of this approach, can be fatal. Since you seem determined to ignore anything said by those with experience I shall let you be. Good luck.

 

[Nemrod]

Well N

I think you are probably like many of us. Your history is all to familiar. Tell me.... I am moving to a small set of doubles. double 50's to be exact. How would you use your doubles. Would you treat one as diveing gas and teh other for emergency or partially breath one down to a reserve level and switch to the other tank sort of like sidemount diving.

First let me say that I am simply saying what I do, not recommending anyone do what I do, it is what I do and how I do it, plain and simple.

If you are asking about using independent doubles, I use the Rule of Thirds for solo. I breath each tank approximately 750 (steel 72) or 1,000 (aluminum 50/65) and switch. This way I preserve full redundancy to the end of the dive. If you breath one tank down, then you no longer can use it for redundancy. I exit the water with a full third of air supply remaining or some predetermined amount I decided sufficient to cover my aXX if there was some "problem" .

Now, if you want to treat it simply as a big back mounted pony, go ahead but that seems like a lot to carry. When (I) using a pony, the pony is sacred, I do not breath it unless there is a problem with my main rig. For pony bottles I have come to decide that slinging it is best.

The surface remains my redundant air source for dives less than 60 feet, plus or minus. I use a single tank of sufficient capacity, follow the Rule of Thirds (more or less) and do not generally carry a pony for these types of dives. And, shhh, in benign tropical waters, I may go deeper than 60 feet solo with my singles rig. In dark, cold, more challenging dives, I may stay much more shallow or truthfully, in that situation, it is time to go independent doubles. I may say that "safety is way over rated" but I am not stupid either if you follow.

Sorry to side track, I have been looking for compatible bands to set up doubles using 50s, what make of commercial bands have you found or are you having them custom made?

The aluminum 50s take standard 6.9 inch bands same as used for steel 72s. This si a size that should be available from Highland I think it is. Mine were custom made and I have another set made more narrow for independent doubles.

N

 

[randy88k5]

YOuR THIRD There are regs that continously have 1st stage leaking.

Then those regs are a piece of garbage and I would never use, let alone buy, one. They are defective and should be repaired or tossed. Out of curiosity - which regs are you making this claim about - used ones you own? new ones? what brands? I think you're blowing some smoke here.

I believe KWS is speaking of a Sherwood Magnum. They have a small orifice that continuously bleeds air to keep the ambient chamber dry. It is designed that way.

 

[NAM001]

N

Your answer is inline with my general thinking.

thanks.

First let me say that I am simply saying what I do, not recommending anyone do what I do, it is what I do and how I do it, plain and simple.

If you are asking about using independent doubles, I use the Rule of Thirds for solo. I breath each tank approximately 750 (steel 72) or 1,000 (aluminum 50/65) and switch. This way I preserve full redundancy to the end of the dive. If you breath one tank down, then you no longer can use it for redundancy. I exit the water with a full third of air supply remaining or some predetermined amount I decided sufficient to cover my aXX if there was some "problem" .

Now, if you want to treat it simply as a big back mounted pony, go ahead but that seems like a lot to carry. When (I) using a pony, the pony is sacred, I do not breath it unless there is a problem with my main rig. For pony bottles I have come to decide that slinging it is best.

The surface remains my redundant air source for dives less than 60 feet, plus or minus. I use a single tank of sufficient capacity, follow the Rule of Thirds (more or less) and do not generally carry a pony for these types of dives. And, shhh, in benign tropical waters, I may go deeper than 60 feet solo with my singles rig. In dark, cold, more challenging dives, I may stay much more shallow or truthfully, in that situation, it is time to go independent doubles. I may say that "safety is way over rated" but I am not stupid either if you follow.



The aluminum 50s take standard 6.9 inch bands same as used for steel 72s. This si a size that should be available from Highland I think it is. Mine were custom made and I have another set made more narrow for independent doubles.

N

---------- Post added January 5th, 2013 at 08:07 PM ----------

I dont understand the change from solo to buddy diving. That is ok. In the solo workd the pony is for you when you have an OOA at the secondary. When you are solo and run into someone else and join up with him you are either still solo with no obligation or you convert to a buddy relationship. If solo the pony is for you, If buddy, all your air resources are donateable. All this is jsut termonlogy adn interpretaiton. The problem with donating a pony is how do you do it and not be tethered. A pony has a short hose. Passing bp/w to bp/w is one thing passing to other than a bp/w may not be a good thing unless teh recipient knows how to receive the pony. Hence you are tied togetner. The long hose is the solution for that problem. Not necessarily passing the bottle.

Your question of "switcthing to what" A buddy rig has 2 secondary's on a single 1st stage. an ideal solo rig has one secondary hose and the backup hose is on the bottle. That works fine for a DEDICATED solo rig. For many divers they dont have rigs for buddy and solo and others for doubles ect. So to switch from buddy diving to solo diving you either rehose the rigs or just leave them alone and have a dedicated low performance reg on a pony bottle. The topic of the OP was redundancey or failure point. To do repedative rehosing of the rig contributes to a failure of orings ect. Keeping the octo for use as a second air path (redundant secondary reg. Or in the case of H or Y valves you have redundant 1st also. The bottle is now nothing more than your redundant/ independant air source in the event of a dip tube blockage burst desk rupture or actual no air from bad spg ect.

I dont recall the regs that have continous leaking or why, I just know they exist and that sometimes things happen. The point is that if you have a redundant air source of especially a 13 pony you dont want to have any drain on it at all. Whether it be from leaks or periodic predive testing. At depth if you need the pony you are most likely simi paniced while you diagnose and effect a remedy. Although some go by a rule that says no deeper than the size of your tank, 80 cuft max depth 80 ft. the pony is a different animal as it is not used till a problem prestnts it self. Therfore the thumb rule is moot for solo. I believe you or someone said that they mathed it out and that the pony was good to x feet. i would personally cut that depth in half. To have the 13 and predive check it for say 30 dives no longer leaves you with 13 cuft and to add higher air consumption to boot could lead to problems. I am not saying that a 13 is too small. fortunately in the area of recerational solo diving the 20 ft stop is a SAFETY and not a manditory stop. It is all about risk assesment and management. I suspect that you do not dive H or Y walves and that your decission on your configuration works for you. You apparently always wive with teh solo config. I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE WRONG. However on the issue of redundancy or failure point, the answere is probably not as black and white for others as we have made it for our selves. The answer for the dedicated solo rig and the config for the ocassional solo dive may not be the same. For me it works to have the same config on most all dives. When i dive solo i strap on my pony (NAMED BUDDY) and go.

Regards

I may start a dive solo but might need to assist another diver who is in the water independant of me. Everything in my setup facilitates that.



First, I would not have an octo because there is absolutely no reason to have one. Second, switch what????? I always carry my pony - solo or with a buddy. Solo, I need an independant redundant air source. While buddy diving, passing an independant, redundant air source to an OOA diver is always preferable to sharing air. You are not tied together and so can ascend independantly - much easier than a face to face ascent, bumping into each other. An uncontrolled ascent by one (OOA diver panics) would not endanger both divers. Both divers have plenty of air, even at the end of a dive. and on and on ...



Then those regs are a piece of garbage and I would never use, let alone buy, one. They are defective and should be repaired or tossed. Out of curiosity - which regs are you making this claim about - used ones you own? new ones? what brands? I think you're blowing some smoke here.



Actually, I thought they were quite contributing. When confronted with an area of knowledge/skill I have no experience or training in I seek the input of people who have that expertise rather than floundering around and making mistakes trying to figure it out for myself. I don't have the ego that requres me to re-invent the wheel or think that I don't need help. In SCUBA blind experimentation in order to learn, and encountering the unavoiadable mistakes of this approach, can be fatal. Since you seem determined to ignore anything said by those with experience I shall let you be. Good luck.

 

[Bob DBF]

I have a 19 pony with a quality reg set up,my question is for my primary rig should I eliminate my octo and just go with my primary reg (second stage) and my pony reg (second stage) or should I keep all 3 regs.I am speaking for solo.I feel like on one hand 3 regs can be considered redundancy and yes extra task loading to deal with,while also presenting another failure point as in freeflow.I am interested in hearing some more opinions about this setup.

As in any diving configuration, unless you subscribe to DIR or some team concept, it is up to you and determined on your style of diving and the conditions you will encounter.

I am in agreement with Nemrod and others in using the surface as the reduntant air supply and ultimatly, it is your last reduntant air supply regardless of how much gas you take down with you. Since I dive with buddies, solo with surface backup, and with pony (solo and buddy), I use pri and safe second and add the pony as I need it. My buddy has an AirII and I have been thinking of trying that configuration since I have one lying about.

Originally Posted by KWS

YOUR THIRD There are regs that continously have 1st stage leeking.

Originally Posted by Kharon
Then those regs are a piece of garbage and I would never use, let alone buy, one. They are defective and should be repaired or tossed. Out of curiosity - which regs are you making this claim about - used ones you own? new ones? what brands? I think you're blowing some smoke here.

Sherwood has been making a dry bleed (looks like a very slow leak but is not) regulator since '79 or '80. The dry bleed keeps the internal components from being exposed to water. Because of it's realiability and cost you will find Sherwoods in rental fleets.

I upgraded to a newer Sherwood recently and use the '80 Magnum on my pony. The loss from the dry bleed is negligable. Using the 19cuft pony for wing inflation while on my double hose during a 100' dive in Lake Tahoe I dropped 200#

As an aside, Sherwood manufactured most SCUBA regulators before they came out with their first in '72.



Bob
----------------------------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[Searcaigh]

Actually my Pony reg has a long hose attached and although I lose a little bit of gas on my AL13 pre dive testing etc, this is resolved by topping up from one of my HP tanks, and I usually have 200 bar in it for the next day's diving.

Occasionally I will use the pony to surface on my last dive of the day.

 

[NAM001]

Yes and that is what needs to be done at some point. Most people do not have the xfer whip to do that and thier only option is go to the shop to get a top off. I just had a 6 cu ft filled for cal gas and it cost the same as gettng my 95 filled. So long as the pony is kept full like you and i are doing there will not be a creeping problem with the pony.

Actually my Pony reg has a long hose attached and although I lose a little bit of gas on my AL13 pre dive testing etc, this is resolved by topping up from one of my HP tanks, and I usually have 200 bar in it for the next day's diving.

Occasionally I will use the pony to surface on my last dive of the day.

 

[Searcaigh]

Yea the LDS p!sses me off when they charge for topping up a pony, but sometimes where I dive I top it up with air if I have been using it although it is marked for Nitrox. Last analysis showed 27%.

 

[Nemrod]

I think some confusion exists in this topic by the definition of what is meant by solo. When I say solo, I meant exactly that. I am completely alone, there is nobody with me, I am on my own, I am not going to run into anybody by chance with an OOA. I am absolutely by myself, I am SOLO.

I am not group diving with no specific assigned buddy. If and when I dive that way, group with no specific buddy, I rig a standard scuba with a regulator to share air, because, I am not solo.

And if as in some old Sea Hunt episode I just happen upon a beautiful temptress stuck under a rock and OOA while I am solo, trust me, I can handle the situation, no matter how I am rigged. As I have said before, I do not believe in no win scenarios.

N