Red and White Vs Blue and White...????

[SURFFOILS]

I’m in Australia and dived on and off since 1976. We have the blue and white pennant/ flag here that’s considered the maritime standard for DD.
But if there’s no ‘universal’ safety flag then there’s nothing really... it’s a lottery considering the tourist numbers.
I’m now keen to get my kids into diving but if I can’t guarantee some level of safety, what’s the point ?

 

[Sam Miller III]

@АлександрД

Hey Hombre (Spanish for Man-often used in the SW US )
You are doing great! And I am impressed with you vast diving knowledge and English.

However you only batted 50% on your response.

The individual pictured had nothing to do with the dive flag - Its origin dates back to two sentences by the late Ted Nixon in the September 1957 Skin Diver magazine.

The individual pictured was unknown until about 20 years ago when Collen Bondy wrote and article in Dive Training (DT)asking for information on the dive flag Most who were instrumental in the creation and establishment of the diver flag were either deceased or as I, didn't read the magazine- he responded he was the father of the flag.

When the word was passed around it was too late Collen was no longer with DT and they were not interested in a retraction of the article

On September 22 1962 the first case of a diver fling the red & white dive flag being struck by a boat occurred at Catalina, Island California USA. I was called as the "expert witness" to defend the then new divers flag. As expected I and the attorneys did considerable research on the origin of the dive flag..The individuals picture or name never appeared on any document, expressed or by reference.

Subsequently I had numerous consults on the diver flag

In 1988 an individual from New England (North east US) had purchased a jewelry manufacturing company who had been manufacturing Dive flag jewelry for some time- In his litigation he declared he was the owner of the dive flag and ALL who manufactured a red & white dive flag would owe him a royalty.
Once again I was a witness once again the individual was name never appeared on any document, expressed or by reference.

The red and white dive flag was considered in the public domain and was generic to recreational diving
Now you know more about the dive flag than any one else in Russia...Use the knowledge wisely
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also have the Van Halen record and CD -- never opened
The individual who clamed ownership of the flag sure missed out in not claiming royalties for the use of his flag on the record and the CD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interesting ?
Samuel Miller, III

 

[АлександрД]

Thank you very much for real story from beholder of appearance of Red-White diving flag!

I followed to Diver down flag - Wikipedia whre is information about Denzel James Dockery, as inventor of the flag.

BTW there is a link to "Regolamento per l'esecuzione della Legge 14 luglio 1965, n. 963, concernente la disciplina della pesca marittima" (Italian rules for maritime activity):
---------------------
ARTICOLO 130 - Segnalazioni
Il subacqueo in immersione ha l'obbligo di segnalarsi con un galleggiante recante una bandiera rossa con striscia diagonale bianca, visibile ad una distanza non inferiore a 300 metri; se il subacqueo è accompagnato da mezzo nautico di appoggio, la bandiera deve essere messa issata sul mezzo nautico.
Il subacqueo deve operare entro un raggio di 50 metri dalla verticale del mezzo nautico di appoggio o del galleggiante portante la bandiera di segnalazione.
--------------------- (autotranslation)
ARTICLE 130 - Reports
The diver in immersion has the obligation to signal itself with a float bearing a red flag with white diagonal strip, visible at a distance of not less than 300 meters; if the diver is accompanied by a nautical support, the flag must be placed on the boat.
The diver must operate within a radius of 50 meters from the vertical of the support vessel or of the float bearing the flag.

So - Just three years passed from first real practice of RedWhite flag, and more three years to sign this rules by Italian presidente. It was oficcially accepted in 1968 in ITALY!

In Russia for inner water ways officially we use same rules as for international - Alpha flag.

Can I translate your information and publish on our forums?

P.S. please, read PM (conversation message from me)
P.P.S. Did you read my signature? I really brings my gratitude to Ted Eldred History of his invention even more interesting...

 

[Kharon]

Boaters in North America will recognize both flags.

Nah!!! In my experience, very few to almost no boaters in the US know about or pay attention to dive flags other than to 1. motor up to them to see what they are, 2. use them as slalom flags, 3. try to pull them up because they think they found something to take home.

 

[Sam Miller III]

Thank you very much for real story from beholder of appearance of Red-White diving flag!
>>> I was "involved" with the red & white dive flag via Skin Diver Magazine (SDM). My girl friend at that the time lived near the SDM office. On occasion I would drop the SDM office in for a visit & chat - In the late 1950s the proposed diving flag was a hot often discussed topic by the US and west coast Canadian divers so our discussion at SDM would be centered around the proposed flag.

I never knew why I was chosen out of all the SoCal divers to defend the divers flag in the case of Toso verses Burns I the very first defense of the red & white flag-- I suspect but will never know that the editors and staff of SDM had something to do with me being selected.

I followed to Diver down flag - Wikipedia where is information about Denzel James Dockery, as inventor of the flag.
>>>Good yarn ! Exceptionally good if you still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny....

In Russia for inner water ways officially we use same rules as for international - Alpha flag.
>>> That is interesting ! During one of the "Cold Wars" between the US and Russia in the early 1960s I was a CDO & DSO of a proposed DDS and for some unknown reason we needed a Russian diving manual complete with English translation. I recall that at that time the Russian divers had a special divers flag-- do you recall it ?

Can I translate your information and publish on our forums?
>>> You are certainly welcome to publish anything you consider appropriate ---However I have been quoted and misquoted on numerous occasions so recently I have been restricting recopying via a restrictive phase on all my documents.
There will be a complete history of the divers flag published in the near future on this board -- so hold off publishing any thing of the divers flag at this time

P.S. please, read PM (conversation message from me)
>>> I will read and respond

P.P.S. Did you read my signature? I really brings my gratitude to Ted Eldred History of his invention even more interesting...
Most important equipment - is own head © PADI **
And thanks to Ted Eldred!

>>> Hombre-- 99 percent of the members of this board have never heard of Ted Eldred or his regulator and battle with Cousteau and company. Yet in far off cold Russia you are aware of Ted
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keep up the good work and great posts

SAM

 

[kelemvor]

In my home state of Florida USA the red/white flag is required by law. Unfortunately, no training or licensing is required to drive a boat so many boaters have no idea what the flags mean. Stories abound of curious boaters driving over to a flag and even some picking up the flag as a souvenir. It's become so bad that some divers refuse to carry a flag, seeing the flag its-self as a hazard due to boaters reacting inappropriately to them.

I had a plan that I have not yet followed through with to print and laminate a bunch of these. Then post them at boat ramps across the state.

 

[Sam Miller III]

@kelemvor
Fantastic !
So many complain ~~ so few take action-- And it only takes a few dollars to educate, After all the life you save may be yours...

FYI the "official" or "suggested" portion of the flag universally agreed on in 1959 or 1960 was to be 5 units wide X 4 units high X I unit stripe -- If you can change the flag on your post your post it would be "more official"

Why reinvent ? I congratulate @rhwestfall who stated has been posting a description at marinas and boat launching facilities and I suspect he has a great out line of his lecture on the history and purpose of the divers flag
Perhaps iof he is not too busy diving he will post his or you can contact him via PM

Keep up the good work and keep the diving world informed of your success

Sam Miller, III

 

[boulderjohn]

Unfortunately, no training or licensing is required to drive a boat so many boaters have no idea what the flags mean.

It is my understanding that in Florida, both the blue and white alpha flag and the red and white dive flag are supposed to be flown while the boat is supervising divers in the water.

I go to South Florida every winter, and I have become good friends with an avid fisherman during that time. He owns a boat in Massachusetts, where he boats and fishes most of the year, and a boat in Florida, where he boats and fishes in the winter. He has been doing this for decades, and cannot begin to guess how many thousands of hours he has spent on the water. He is also a diver, although he gave it up and has not dived in years.

I hate fishing, but I go out with him from time to time. On one such trip a few weeks ago, we talked about the flags when we saw a dive boat flying them. He knew what the red and white flag was, but he had no idea what the blue and white flag meant, so I had to explain it to him.

 

[kelemvor]

It is my understanding that in Florida, both the blue and white alpha flag and the red and white dive flag are supposed to be flown while the boat is supervising divers in the water.

I go to South Florida every winter, and I have become good friends with an avid fisherman during that time. He owns a boat in Massachusetts, where he boats and fishes most of the year, and a boat in Florida, where he boats and fishes in the winter. He has been doing this for decades, and cannot begin to guess how many thousands of hours he has spent on the water. He is also a diver, although he gave it up and has not dived in years.

I hate fishing, but I go out with him from time to time. On one such trip a few weeks ago, we talked about the flags when we saw a dive boat flying them. He knew what the red and white flag was, but he had no idea what the blue and white flag meant, so I had to explain it to him.

Oh yeah, there's lots of things that are supposed to happen when you drive a boat. Like I said though, there's no licensing or mandatory training or anything. Our legislators have decided the impact on tourism would not be worth the benefits, apparently.

I'm not sure about the blue/white one being required. I don't know the rule there for sure but I don't recall ever having seen it on any of the dive charters I've used. Maybe I just missed it.

When I dove in Roatan, Honduras, most of the boats just had the red/white flag painted on the side of the boat. No actual flags. In Cozumel, Mexico they seemed to be using the red/white flag.

 

[boulderjohn]

I don't know the rule there for sure but I don't recall ever having seen it on any of the dive charters I've used. Maybe I just missed it.

You probably missed it because they are not only required to fly them while supervising divers, they are not allowed to fly them when they are not supervising divers. I use primarily two operators in Florida, and I see them stick the flags in their holders just as they start to drop divers and pull them out when the last diver boards. You are in the water for most of the time the flags are flying, and you are probably busy when they are being put in or taken out.

At least that is my non-professional understanding.