Recreational Trimix classes

[narcT]

MHK once bubbled...
Let me see if I can shed some light behind our intention(s) of the GUE Triox program..

The underlying spirit and intention of the class is to fill a void that some of us believe exists in the industry. While for certain the helium content has spurred the curiousity of many, the class is more aligned with what many of us believe should be a true advanced diving class. More often the not, most AOW classes today are an immediate extension of the OW class. Some believe that the OW programs have been diluted significantly so the AOW is the completion of OW training.

A true Advanced diving class should, in my opinion, be about learning proper protocols to dive in the 80' - 120', including proper gas choice, proper team protocols, proper gas management, ascent rate startegies and refining fundamental skills that are often ignored. Against that background we released the Recreational Triox program. I think too many people focus on the helium aspect, whereas we believe that helium is but one small tool in the tool box when you are planning a dive in the 80' - 120' range..

I hope that more fully explains the program, but please let me know if you have any questions..

Regards

Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):

120 feet for 15 minutes on EANx 32 requires 3 minute deco.
120 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires a 10 minute deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on air requires 41 minutes of deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires 49 minutes deco (but your not narcT).

What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

 

[MHK]

narcT once bubbled...


Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):
What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

I'm not sure where you got your profiles from, but in the recreational diving, ie; in the 80'- 120' range you will NOT see an increase on decompression obligation. In fact, we keep our GUE Recreational Triox class in otherwise recrecational accepted NDL limits, so there is no added penalty. So the obvious question you may still have then is why use it anyway.

Well, when you consider the C02 reduction in terms of potential C02 retention, when you consider gas density issues, when you consider the END benefits over air you start to see that once the misinformation is dispelled that Triox is today what Nitrox was about 10 years ago, misunderstood, demagogued and the benefactor of a scare tactic.. That is until the "giants" figure out how to market it and then they'll be selling it to you in no time.. Remember 10 years ago the big agencies where saying that Nitrox was snake oil and voodoo gas, now today they are selling classes over the internet without ever having to meet an instructor or get in the water.. They had it wrong then, and they have it wrong now..

Later

 

[wb416]

narcT once bubbled...


Hi, I have never used Helium before so forgive me if this is a stupid question

Consider the following(EXAMPLES, DON'T USE FOR DIVING):

120 feet for 15 minutes on EANx 32 requires 3 minute deco.
120 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires a 10 minute deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on air requires 41 minutes of deco.
200 feet for 15 minutes on 21/35 triox requires 49 minutes deco (but your not narcT).

What is the benefit of using triox if it increases your deco obligation? I mean, I understand at 200 feet it helps one keep a clear head.

Triox at rec diving limits just seems like a terrible waste of good Helium??? Isn't Helium expensive???

-Just Curious

What program are you using for the calculation? If I take your first example of 120 ft... first, I, personally, would reconsider the use of EAN 32, nonetheless, if you look at a more apples-to-apples on the "recreational" depth juxaposing EAN30 and 30/30 using V-planner, you'll see the overall time is a wash:
(my bottom times are different than yours above, but I already had these examples saved)

V-Planner 3.10 by R. Hemingway, VPM code by Erik C. Baker.

Decompression model: VPM-B

DIVE PLAN 1
120ft, 25 minutes, EAN30
Surface interval = 7 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 120ft (2) on Nitrox 30.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 120ft 22:36 (25) on Nitrox 30.0, 1.39 ppO2, 103ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Nitrox 30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 40ft (27) on Nitrox 30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 30ft 2:20 (30) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.57 ppO2, 23ft END
Stop at 20ft 3:00 (33) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.48 ppO2, 14ft END
Stop at 10ft 7:00 (40) on Nitrox 30.0, 0.39 ppO2, 5ft END
Asc to sfc. (41) on Nitrox 30.0, -10ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 71.4 ft

OTU's this dive: 42
CNS Total: 16.7%

98.2 cu ft Nitrox 30.0
98.2 cu ft TOTAL

DIVE PLAN 2
120ft, 25 minutes, 30/30
Surface interval = 7 day 0 hr 0 min.
Altitude = 0ft
Conservatism = Nominal

Dec to 120ft (2) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 50ft/min descent.
Level 120ft 22:36 (25) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 1.39 ppO2, 44ft END
Asc to 100ft (25) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Asc to 40ft (27) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -30ft/min ascent.
Stop at 30ft 1:20 (29) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.57 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 20ft 4:00 (33) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.48 ppO2, 0ft END
Stop at 10ft 7:00 (40) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, 0.39 ppO2, 0ft END
Asc to sfc. (41) on Trimix 30.0/30.0, -10ft/min ascent.

Off gassing starts at 70.4 ft

OTU's this dive: 42
CNS Total: 16.6%

98.0 cu ft Trimix 30.0/30.0
98 cu ft TOTAL

In this case with this program, adding He adds no additional obligation, in fact, the overall runtime is the same. Doing the same dive on EAN30 vs 30/30, I've personally noticed greater detail with 30/30 even though I'd done the same dive many times previously on EAN30.

regards,
bob

 

[cornfed]

MHK once bubbled...


I'm not sure where you got your profiles from, but in the recreational diving, ie; in the 80'- 120' range you will NOT see an increase on decompression obligation. In fact, we keep our GUE Recreational Triox class in otherwise recrecational accepted NDL limits, so there is no added penalty. So the obvious question you may still have then is why use it anyway.

Mike,

Have you taken a look at IANTD's new program? I'm curious as to what you think about it.

 

[MHK]

cornfed once bubbled...


Mike,

Have you taken a look at IANTD's new program? I'm curious as to what you think about it.

The only thing that I've seen of the program is from Jim Wyatt's website, and since I believe firmly that this program is much more then adding helium to the mix it would be difficult for me to comment on the program based on a comparitive analysis of what I know about the GUE program and what is on Jim's site..

Sorry I couldn't be of more help..

Regards

 

[cornfed]

MHK once bubbled...

Sorry I couldn't be of more help..

I've posted the current IANTD standards TWICE to this thread...

Come on Mike, it's not like there are 600 posts in this thread!

 

[chrpai]

cornfed once bubbled...


Let's start with your assumption...

There are lot of wrecks near me that are in 100+ ft range. I'm interested in "tech" because I want to spend more then 10 or 15 minutes on them. Now Tech 1 is the level I'd like to be at but I'm not ready for the class. I have a few opinions,

• make these dives with (what I consider) inadequate training
• rush to meet the prerequisites for the training I want, eg hit the quarry every weekend and fill up my log book
• stop making these dives until I receive the training I want
• take a class I don't "need" so that I can dive some of the things I'd like and keep working till I'm read for my "real" training.

Wouldn't you agree that taking a class I don't really "need" is the best option?

Considering I know the wrecks that you speak of, and the quality of divers you'll find at the quarry, I wouldn't say that is your best option.

I don't know about you, but I get more out of a quarry trip then just logging another dive in the old book ( which I don't bother to do anyways)

Also you can go out on Surface Interval or Fiest on a 100' dive and get alot more then 15 minutes out of a dive using just Nitrox.

 

[narcT]

wb416 once bubbled...


What program are you using for the calculation? If I take your first example of 120 ft... first, I, personally, would reconsider the use of EAN 32, nonetheless, if you look at a more apples-to-apples on the "recreational" depth juxaposing EAN30 and 30/30 using V-planner, you'll see the overall time is a wash:
(my bottom times are different than yours above, but I already had these examples saved)


In this case with this program, adding He adds no additional obligation, in fact, the overall runtime is the same. Doing the same dive on EAN30 vs 30/30, I've personally noticed greater detail with 30/30 even though I'd done the same dive many times previously on EAN30.

regards,
bob

Last time I said I dive EAN 32 at 130 all the time I was called a Troll. So I won't say that again! Ok, so lets say I use EAN 30.

I'm using Deco Planner 2.0.49 from GUE (whoever that is ).
Your using a 30/30 mix, I thought Triox was 21/35? That would make a little difference for sure Using 30/30 is definitly closer, 120ft for 15 minutes 4 minute deco rather than 10 minutes on 21/35 and 3 minutes on nitrox 30.

Question, how much does it cost for an AL80 with Triox 30/30 v. just plain ol Nitrox 30?

 

[MHK]

cornfed once bubbled...


I've posted the current IANTD standards TWICE to this thread...

Come on Mike, it's not like there are 600 posts in this thread!

I think you missed my point.. My point was that you can't get a feel for a class by simply looking at the standards, atleast in the class that we are discussing. What I mean by that, and I'm trying to be careful not to throw the IANTD's class under the bus, is that it's easy to copy or modify the standards that we put out to put another's agencies touch on the standards, but in my view this class is all about teaching the proper diving protocols to dive in the deep recreational range, and helium is but one small tool in the tool box. Accordingly, in order for me to comment on the IANTD program I would need to see the course material, and I'm advised there is no books, and I would need to see what the class does in the way of skills.

For example [ and it's completely hypothetical for illustration} but let's say the approach is that in their view the class is about helium, and they do a similiar approach to their Nitrox class, meaning they talk about the gas and the dives are recommended, but not required. If that was the case I would have one view of the class. However on the other end of the spectrum, let's assume that they do 6 dives [ or whatever number] but the dives are more aligned with skills necessary to be practiced for a class that is certifying someone to dive deep in the recreational relm, then I would have a different view of the class. There just isn't enough information to comment by looking at standards..

Regards

 

[cornfed]

Welcome back, how's the desert?

Since you and I have somewhat of a less then amiable history, Chris, let me preface by letting you know I'm in a pissy mode today so take what I say too personally, alright?

chrpai once bubbled...


Considering I know the wrecks that you speak of, and the quality of divers you'll find at the quarry, I wouldn't say that is your best option.

You'd be amazed who you find at the quarry if you know where to look.

I don't know about you, but I get more out of a quarry trip then just logging another dive in the old book ( which I don't bother to do anyways)

Pedagogical.... let's not rehash that shall we?

Also you can go out on Surface Interval or Fiest on a 100' dive and get alot more then 15 minutes out of a dive using just Nitrox.

Try doing 2 back-to-back 100 ft dives on nitrox with a 1 hr SIT and see what kind of times you acutally get on the bottom. Not run time, but actual time at 100 ft.