Rec open water ascents, trim and the team

[DIR-Atlanta]

I realize that as a new diver it can be hard to discuss trim and bouyancy with others without getting "preachy".

IMO, the easiest way to avoid this is simply not to preach. Explain what you do and why. Explain why it works for you. Always answer questions in a non-judgemental way, and make it clear that you respect the rights of other divers to dive as they please (even when you don't agree with what they are doing). Initially, you may have to make some hard decisions about what types of dives to do, and with whom to do them. In some cases you may find that you have to be a little compromising on some of your principles (for example, is it really that critical to a particular dive that all team members finish the dive in a horizontal position? If not, then don't make an issue of it).

I can almost guarantee you that eventually, your dive buddies will start coming to you to ask "how you do that". They will begin to notice that your movements in the water are relaxed and effortless, your air consumption is much lower, and that you are seeing more on the dives than they are (since you are not constantly fiddling with your buoyancy, scaring the fish, etc). When they start asking questions, then you can begin to discuss what they need to be doing to get to where you are. At that point they will probably be ready to listen, and that makes their conversion to the dark side much easier.

Note that some people may never adopt your style of diving, and there is nothing you can do about that (except exercise your right not to dive with them). Concentrate instead on finding dive buddies who will not be a liability to you or your diving, then the rest will usually take care of itself (i.e. "Build it and they will come").

 

[tceylan]

Thanks for the feedback everybody. This thread cleared up a lot of questions for me.

 

[CompuDude]

I hate to see the answer to your problem continually be "another forum", but I can definitely refer you to the folks hanging out at ScubaPost.net ... most of them are local to San Diego area, and all are hardcore, many times per week divers. Additionally, very safety conscious. Not many are DIR trained, but a few are, and even among those who aren't I can pretty much assure you they will take to heart your desire to maintain group cohesion through the last 10' of the dive. Pop in and say hi!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I don't know what the DIR answer is, but as TSM said, surface hazards are a big issue. I think it is highly desirable to maintain a vertical orientation for the last 6-8 feet or so. When I'm done with my 10 ft stop, I usually will dump all air from the BC and then SWIM slowly up while using half breaths to maintain negative bouyancy.

Should a boat suddenly appear, I am hopeful that I can exhale fully and use my arms to push me down a few feet to allow a speeding boat to pass over head. Floating lazily to the surface laying on your belly in the open ocean does not sound like the safest practice to me. When you are horizontal, there is too much surface area and drag to allow a rapid descent.

 

[lamont]

I don't know what the DIR answer is, but as TSM said, surface hazards are a big issue. I think it is highly desirable to maintain a vertical orientation for the last 6-8 feet or so. When I'm done with my 10 ft stop, I usually will dump all air from the BC and then SWIM slowly up while using half breaths to maintain negative bouyancy.

Should a boat suddenly appear, I am hopeful that I can exhale fully and use my arms to push me down a few feet to allow a speeding boat to pass over head. Floating lazily to the surface laying on your belly in the open ocean does not sound like the safest practice to me. When you are horizontal, there is too much surface area and drag to allow a rapid descent.

The first thing you should be doing on an ascent, though, is using your ears to listen for prop noise. You should be using your eyes to watch behind your buddies (doesn't really matter if you are vertical or horizontal, nobody can see directly behind them, so you need your buddies to watch back there for you). And it is going to be more efficient to try to swim down with your fins rather than try to swim down with your hands. If you really need to descend rapidly you are better off dropping your head down and kicking. Plus on a shore dive you should be ascending in a shallow enough area that you would be unlikely to encounter boat props, and on a boat dive you should have a boat captain who is willing to put their boat between other oncoming boats and the divers in the water.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

Should a boat suddenly appear, I am hopeful that I can exhale fully and use my arms to push me down a few feet to allow a speeding boat to pass over head. Floating lazily to the surface laying on your belly in the open ocean does not sound like the safest practice to me.

If you are diving in the ocean (and in particular in areas that are subject to boat traffic), then you should be using a flag and float to alert boaters to your location in the water. Assuming that (a) they understand and respect what a dive flag signifies (which I know is a whole other topic of discussion), and (b) you surface at your flag, then there should not be any issues with being run over by a boat. If for some reason you are not using a flag and float (for example a drifting deco), then you should deploy an SMB to mark your position.

Either way, it should be pretty easy for boaters to be aware of your location and avoid you, so I don't see the concerns over horizontal vs vertical position on the ascent to be much of an issue in either case. You can easily be run over by a careless boater in either orientation.

When you are horizontal, there is too much surface area and drag to allow a rapid descent.

That's the whole point of maintaining a horizontal position during ascent - the increased drag gives you much more control over your ascent rate. And if you have to get underwater quickly, it's much easier (as lamont suggests) to go from a horizontal position to a head-down "swimming down" position, than to do the same from a head-up position. Pike dive, pull the rear dump on your wing to get negative, and then start kicking. That's a much more effective way to submerge quickly, IMO.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If you are diving in the ocean (and in particular in areas that are subject to boat traffic), then you should be using a flag and float to alert boaters to your location in the water. Assuming that (a) they understand and respect what a dive flag signifies (which I know is a whole other topic of discussion), and (b) you surface at your flag, then there should not be any issues with being run over by a boat. If for some reason you are not using a flag and float (for example a drifting deco), then you should deploy an SMB to mark your position.

Either way, it should be pretty easy for boaters to be aware of your location and avoid you, so I don't see the concerns over horizontal vs vertical position on the ascent to be much of an issue in either case. You can easily be run over by a careless boater in either orientation.


That's the whole point of maintaining a horizontal position during ascent - the increased drag gives you much more control over your ascent rate. And if you have to get underwater quickly, it's much easier (as lamont suggests) to go from a horizontal position to a head-down "swimming down" position, than to do the same from a head-up position. Pike dive, pull the rear dump on your wing to get negative, and then start kicking. That's a much more effective way to submerge quickly, IMO.

Using a horizontal position to increase drag and improve ascent rate control during MOST of the ascent seems fine to me. I am however, talking about the last 10-12 feet of the ascent where I feel strongly that the horizontal position is less than optimal.

As you conceded, all the flags, floats and SMB’s can be worthless when there is an idiot boater. Assuming that the ascent follows the bottom contour up into a shallow area is obviously not applicable to most all real world diving and is irrelevant to the discussion of a robust, safety-oriented protocol which can be followed in situations where boats are present.

This subject became much more than a “theoretical” discussion for me the day that I recovered the body of my friend who had fatal prop lacerations through the top of his skull. Looking down into his brain, as the water parted his thick hair on the ascent, left quite an impression on me. In my opinion, the most significant danger when drift diving with live boats is getting hit by a boat, not OOA, sharks etc.

I had another friend whose was on his 24 foot boat (while anchored 2 miles from an inlet in 80 feet of water) and had the dive flag up and was preparing to dive, when a 35 ft sailboat cruised (on auto-pilot) directly over his boat sinking it and requiring that he and his buddy literally leap off the boat to avoid death. Assuming that flags and smb’s will always work is demonstrably a false security.

Performing a horizontal ascent, relies upon positive buoyancy and breath control to ascend. Right? So it is impossible to be listen for boats when you are exhaling. Listening for boats is a good idea, but not full proof since there are sailboats and also in some areas you can hear more than one boat.

Ascending vertically, while negative requires that the diver actively swim up. To initiate a descent the diver simply needs to stop swimming and should exhale.

In addition, the diver in a vertical position and looking up and rotating slowly (which is simple while swimming) can literally survey 360 degrees of the surface. The ability to scan the surface is less for a diver (team) who is face down. Right?

For myself, I generally hold a long speargun and have this extended vertically above my head which adds negative buoyancy (as the gun is elevated above the surface while I am still submerged) and it provides one last visual clue of the ascending diver.

And while I am going through what I do to ascend; I also usually purge the regulator for 5-10 seconds at 10 feet, which sends a huge plume of bubbles up which is often very visible to an attentive boat operator. Then I exhale, swim to maintain depth and then listen for boats before I initiate a final ascent from 10 feet.

I don’t think I will argue about how long it takes to go from a buoyant horizontal position to a head-down vertical position and to begin dumping air from the BC versus a quick, negative bouyant descent since I have no empirical evidence. The other issues however, seem obvious to me.

 

[CompuDude]

I've heard many GUE instructors say that perfect trim at all times is an ideal that is completely unnecessary if local conditions dictate changes in normal procedures for various safety-related reasons.

While it seems perfectly reasonable to hold good horizontal trim for the entire ascent in the areas I dive (and many of us dive), I think it's reasonable to grant that in some areas, such as DD's area, apparently, the danger from careless boat operators is so severe that changes to the normal protocol are reasonable and prudent.

Here's the question: DumpsterDiver (and others), do you go vertical for the last part of your ascent in ALL conditions, or merely the ones where boats are a severe danger, such as you describe above?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Personally, I dive solo and spear fish. I generally stay vertical for the entire ascent in order to watch for sharks, although if other people want to stay horizontal for most of the ascent, then I see no problem with that.

Since I use very large freedive fins that have so much more area than "DIR fins", I can stop (or slow) an ascent in the vertical orientation by holding one fin forward and one backward and holding the fins blades horizontal. One leg has the knee bent for this position.

 

[lamont]

Personally, I dive solo and spear fish. I generally stay vertical for the entire ascent in order to watch for sharks, although if other people want to stay horizontal for most of the ascent, then I see no problem with that.

Since I use very large freedive fins that have so much more area than "DIR fins", I can stop (or slow) an ascent in the vertical orientation by holding one fin forward and one backward and holding the fins blades horizontal. One leg has the knee bent for this position.

In other words, this has nothing to do with DIR diving. You dive solo, so there's no way for a buddy to be checking your 6 o'clock.

I'll grant you that its not DIR to get yourself killed by a boat while trying to be perfectly flat, but typically I roll side to side so that i can see left or right and go somewhat head-up so that I can keep an eye on the surface in front of me. I rely on my buddy/buddies to be looking behind me. I don't see any need to go completely vertical.