BigJetDriver69:
Hey Rob...not sure who Andy and Jason are? Al's commentary is a tad off in the fact that something like this has occurred in the recent past. I'll PM you because this incident has a striking similarities to a dual fatality. Cheers. X
Rebreather Diver dies in Pool in Oregon
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Hey Rob...not sure who Andy and Jason are? Al's commentary is a tad off in the fact that something like this has occurred in the recent past. I'll PM you because this incident has a striking similarities to a dual fatality. Cheers. X
jepuskar:
I couldn't have said this better myself!!!
Our diving community takes a hit anytime ANYONE gets hurt or dies. I for one, am totally absorbed with being a diving advocate. I will strive to keep our beloved sport safe and fun. We are all human, and contrary to some of your disbeliefs, we make mistakes sometimes, and sometimes, equipment fails. Whatever the cause, a life has been lost. For God sakes, show a little respect. This was someone’s son, maybe a brother or a father, perhaps a husband and I assure you, some of what I'm reading is extremely distasteful and you should be ashamed!
caveseeker7
Contributor
I'm with you on that, Jason, and I think Andy brought a good point, too.
I have dyslexic friends that are being called dumb.
I have friends that never made it through high school and are called the same.
I know people who have an enormous capability to learn yet lack understanding,
or the ability to apply what they learned.
I know people who have been diving, for decades, deep, wrecks, caves and RBs
without ever getting formal training or certification.
Intelligence only goes so far, and people's perception of it can frequently be wrong.
Time to remind some here that Dr. Max Hahn, physicist and noted contributor to
deco tables used by thousands of divers today died five years ago on his CCR. He was an extremly experienced diver and IT on his unit. His body was recovered from a German lake with the dil tank empty and the scrubber spent.
A year earlier, Dr. Henry Kendall, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics with a colleague in 1990, was found dead in 10 ft of water. He died of asphyxiation because the gas switch block on the CCR he used was set for offboard O2 supply. There wasn't any installed.
They say you don't need to be a rocket scientist to dive a rebreather.
I say being one doesn't mean you won't make mistakes; even fatal ones.
I have dyslexic friends that are being called dumb.
I have friends that never made it through high school and are called the same.
I know people who have an enormous capability to learn yet lack understanding,
or the ability to apply what they learned.
I know people who have been diving, for decades, deep, wrecks, caves and RBs
without ever getting formal training or certification.
Intelligence only goes so far, and people's perception of it can frequently be wrong.
Time to remind some here that Dr. Max Hahn, physicist and noted contributor to
deco tables used by thousands of divers today died five years ago on his CCR. He was an extremly experienced diver and IT on his unit. His body was recovered from a German lake with the dil tank empty and the scrubber spent.
A year earlier, Dr. Henry Kendall, who won the Nobel Prize in Physics with a colleague in 1990, was found dead in 10 ft of water. He died of asphyxiation because the gas switch block on the CCR he used was set for offboard O2 supply. There wasn't any installed.
They say you don't need to be a rocket scientist to dive a rebreather.
I say being one doesn't mean you won't make mistakes; even fatal ones.
Omar can't be sure. Nobody could be sure. There's no way to definitively test for a learning disability absolutely contributing to this diver's death.H2Andy:
A learning or behavioral impediment could lead to higher chance for human error. It happens sometimes. I've had divers taking behaviour-altering drugs that mandated closer supervision of them. I've had a couple with learning disabilities that also required greater supervision. In both cases either I or my staff had to intervene to prevent potentially serious accidents. They were all OW-certified.
Mr.X:
Mr. X,
Andy is "H2Andy", Jason is actually "Jepuskar", and Al is "Al Mialkovsky". Sorry, I should have referred to their public personae!
Scuba
Contributor
My condolences to those affected by the loss of another diver. Always more than a diver. A real human being near and dear to others.
I like to address some specifics in this case not rebreather related, along with a recurring issue that continually comes up in this forum,
As distasteful as some may find it, it is important to keep in mind that ScubaBoard does not have an In Memorium or Condolences forum. This is an Accidents and Incidents forum for:
Readers beware, dont expect to find something else. Understand that legitimate points are sometimes raised in what is not the most appropriate fashion, but not necessarily out of malice either. It may be a manner, and a matter, of expression.
The manner in which assertions were made in regards to intelligence or lack thereof in this case may not have been the most appropriate, and certainly legitimate questions about this have been raised. Aside from this particular issue, the issues of diver ability, capacity to perform, or general knowledge and skill competency, are legitimate issues in accident analysis.
Im one who believes in a great deal of latitude when it comes to dive your way, as long as the implications are known, understood, and acceptable. Even so, certain practices, such as this one:
Raise questions about how well the implications are understood. The last two sentences express, without great detail, the appraisal by omar that Harvey did not display in the related cases adequate capacity to understand and perform necessary practices needed to make a safe dive, as would probably be considered by most competent divers. Unfortunately, we dont know how well he understood the risks taken, and if he did, if they were acceptable to him.
Another legitimate issue is in regards to how Harvey went about obtaining training after other instructors who interviewed him in person had declined. There is the fact that most persistent persons can effectively buy a dive certificate, since the standards are set at such a low minimum level, and the important issue of competency or capacity to perform is largely left for instructors to subjectively evaluate. It is important to note that such training operating practices can and do cost injury and lives - even when no-one is legally at fault or in violation of standards. The issue goes beyond the immediate specific cause for this accident, into whether a lack of general inadequacy for consistent task performance was a contributing factor. A predisposition to higher risk. The higher the minimum non subjective codified standards of practice, the lower the cost - even if there will always be a cost. Something to be monitored.
That is one reason why, when I see an accident report here demonstrating poor training practice by an instructor, I recommend an official incident report be filed with the training agency. This will provide important feedback to agencies for instructor evaluation. It gives an agency the opportunity to identify consistently deficient instructors in order to effect remediation or termination. It also places some responsibility square on the agency based on knowledge, as a further incentive to take corrective action. In my opinion, this should be welcomed by all who prioritize and favor improving dive safety through training. I do believe enough information has been provided here to make this a relevant issue, which others are free to affirm or contest.
I like to address some specifics in this case not rebreather related, along with a recurring issue that continually comes up in this forum,
As distasteful as some may find it, it is important to keep in mind that ScubaBoard does not have an In Memorium or Condolences forum. This is an Accidents and Incidents forum for:
Readers beware, dont expect to find something else. Understand that legitimate points are sometimes raised in what is not the most appropriate fashion, but not necessarily out of malice either. It may be a manner, and a matter, of expression.
The manner in which assertions were made in regards to intelligence or lack thereof in this case may not have been the most appropriate, and certainly legitimate questions about this have been raised. Aside from this particular issue, the issues of diver ability, capacity to perform, or general knowledge and skill competency, are legitimate issues in accident analysis.
Im one who believes in a great deal of latitude when it comes to dive your way, as long as the implications are known, understood, and acceptable. Even so, certain practices, such as this one:
omar:
Raise questions about how well the implications are understood. The last two sentences express, without great detail, the appraisal by omar that Harvey did not display in the related cases adequate capacity to understand and perform necessary practices needed to make a safe dive, as would probably be considered by most competent divers. Unfortunately, we dont know how well he understood the risks taken, and if he did, if they were acceptable to him.
Another legitimate issue is in regards to how Harvey went about obtaining training after other instructors who interviewed him in person had declined. There is the fact that most persistent persons can effectively buy a dive certificate, since the standards are set at such a low minimum level, and the important issue of competency or capacity to perform is largely left for instructors to subjectively evaluate. It is important to note that such training operating practices can and do cost injury and lives - even when no-one is legally at fault or in violation of standards. The issue goes beyond the immediate specific cause for this accident, into whether a lack of general inadequacy for consistent task performance was a contributing factor. A predisposition to higher risk. The higher the minimum non subjective codified standards of practice, the lower the cost - even if there will always be a cost. Something to be monitored.
That is one reason why, when I see an accident report here demonstrating poor training practice by an instructor, I recommend an official incident report be filed with the training agency. This will provide important feedback to agencies for instructor evaluation. It gives an agency the opportunity to identify consistently deficient instructors in order to effect remediation or termination. It also places some responsibility square on the agency based on knowledge, as a further incentive to take corrective action. In my opinion, this should be welcomed by all who prioritize and favor improving dive safety through training. I do believe enough information has been provided here to make this a relevant issue, which others are free to affirm or contest.
archman:
Arch, (and Scuba),
Again, I think you are missing the point here. The discussion at the moment is centering around Omar's remarks which, phrased the way they are, constitute an unfounded, and hurtful attack on someone who is deceased.
As for learning disabilities and their possible contribution to an accident, it is instructive to re-read Caveseeker7's post above about other fatal accidents.
I dive RB's, and teach the piloting of same. I stress to my students, and to myself, that in diving rebreathers, as in flying, that one lapse in vigilance could be what cements the last link in the chain of events leading to YOUR accident.
Scuba
Contributor
BigJetDriver69:
Hhmm?
I agree his remarks can be construed as offensive. That they may contain improper and inaccurate allegations about his general intelligence. But if I may suggest, re-read his comments and those I quoted from him in my previous post. I think you can't help but see he laid out a foundation for a case of inadequate safe diving ability. While he should have confined his comments in this regards, perhaps, in order to make his case about obvious unsuitability for this type of training, he may have felt it was necessary. He can speak for himself.
It is a sensitive subject, but I favor freedom of expression which entails our sensibilities will occassionally be touched, over intact sensibilities but lack of information. It's been suggested before a condolences forum be created, a preferable choice over restricting personal, yet possibly honest and reasonable forms of expression.
In the case of Dr. Kendall, if his diving partners had noticed erratic behaviour in him on earlier dives, they'd be obligated to report it. Just like the case with this incident.BigJetDriver69:
Scuba:
My point exactly!
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