Rebreather Discussion from Brockville Incident

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It needs to work like an appliance that has received a UL rating.

This means that even if you screw up, it needs to fail in a safe mode, not a catastrophic or fatal mode.

Specifics are irrelevant. It needs to have no failure modes that are less safe than an air delivery failure on OC.

flots.

Does that extend to valve being closed? Jump in with O2 closed and no electronics in the world will save you (they could warn you but if you don't heed the warning....).

I'm just trying to understand how extensive is that requirement.

To give a simplistic example, does it mean that if the device thinks its adding O2 and it still sees ppO2 dropping it would need to automatically enable switch the diver to bailout?
 
My completely non-scientific take is that I read everything I can get my hands on about diving fatalities, including belonging to a diving accidents group. Every year, I hear about fewer than a dozen OC deaths, a couple of cave diving deaths, and a couple of rebreather deaths.
Do you mean a couple of rebreather fatalities every month or every year? If the later your diving accidents group records appear to be missing a few....
Based on this Deep Life Design Team: databases and analysis of rebreather accident data there have been at least 20 in the past year. A number which unfortunately appears to have been quite consistant for the past decade ever since sale of recreational rebreathers became common.

Regards
Brad
 
It needs to work like an appliance that has received a UL rating.

This means that even if you screw up, it needs to fail in a safe mode, not a catastrophic or fatal mode.

Specifics are irrelevant. It needs to have no failure modes that are less safe than an air delivery failure on OC.

flots.

There have been SEVERAL instances where someone has jumped into the water with out turning their gas on with OC equipment and sank to the bottom and drowned. Oddly enough, the thing that kills most rebreather divers is.... you guessed it, not turning their O2 on. Same issue OC and CCR, same result if you don't reach back and turn it on.... death.
 
Does that extend to valve being closed? Jump in with O2 closed and no electronics in the world will save you (they could warn you but if you don't heed the warning....).

I used plain English and meant exactly what I said. If closed valves would kill you, then it's still a design flaw.

flots
 
I used plain English and meant exactly what I said. If closed valves would kill you, then it's still a design flaw.

flots

Ok... so neither OC nor RBs will ever comply...

More importantly to me, the standard seems to be mismatched with the perception/expectations divers have for RBs, I've never talked to anybody who expected those to be error proof....But I guess that's everybody's point. Sorry it took me so long to get it.
 
I used plain English and meant exactly what I said. If closed valves would kill you, then it's still a design flaw.

flots

Then there's a design flaw in OC. I can name 5 such fatalities in the last 10 years. A few in cave country and a few in Key Largo while I was a captain there.
 
My completely non-scientific take is that I read everything I can get my hands on about diving fatalities, including belonging to a diving accidents group. Every year, I hear about fewer than a dozen OC deaths, a couple of cave diving deaths, and a couple of rebreather deaths. Given that the number of people doing OC recreational dives has to be at least an order of magnitude greater than the number of people doing cave dives or diving rebreathers, I conclude that the latter two are higher risk than the former.

I can guarantee you that there is more than a dozen OC rec deaths per year. And more than a couple cave deaths and more than a couple RB deaths. Just because you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean it didnt' happen. Your sources are incomplete and it would be impossible to draw a conclusion from what you get from the internets.

Also the complexity of the dives the CC and cave people are doing are many orders of magnitude above the usual 50' warm water doodle that the hordes of OC rec divers are doing.

What's scary to me is that lately it seems that pretty much ever time I hear of a CCR death it's a male over 50. Now there's a study.
 
Oddly enough, the thing that kills most rebreather divers is.... you guessed it, not turning their O2 on.

Many more things kill CCR divers.

Just to cite an example, a rather common one, is failure of the galvanic O2 Sensors.

Then there is failure of the electronics.

These failures can be intermittent.

Then there is failure of the CO2 scrubbing system.

The key is that most failure modes in OC are detectable by the diver and the diver can take corrective action. Where the diver takes no action or the wrong action (i.e. panic), then this can and usually does result in fatality of injury.

Conversely, when a CCR fails, the diver, we see this in the pattern of the fatality, becomes unconscious and drowns, unable to effect self-rescue, and the buddies, despite their proximity, are unable to help.

We see this also in the most recent CCR fatality not yet picked up by the Scubaboard accident discussions:

"At the time of the accident George was at a depth of 14-15 meters decompressing from a dive in the 60m range. George suddenly became unconscious. He was spotted within seconds and the closest team member got to him immediately. He was completely unresponsive and not breathing. As this happened just below the habitat we moved him into the habitat and tried to revive him with no success. We recovered George later in the night."

The above was from a recent post on CCRX.

Rebreathers are more complex than OC and a relatively new technology. The technology is new for all intensive purposes when galvanic O2 sensors and electronics were added to a traditional rebreather.

This was back in 1998 with the Electrolung: see Electrolung

Since then, everybody who tried struggled to make the system reliable enough.

There are various ways to measure risk.

One is statistical looking at the fatality rates. Although we do not have precise data (i.e. the denominator), it is strikingly obvious that CCR fatality rates are very large.

This is what led A. Fock to conclude in his RF3.0 paper and presentation that CCR is 10 times more risky than OC - see also Rebreather diving: ?Killing Them Softly? | Diver Magazine .

Then there is the engineering approach which can use reliability measures or SIL Levels.

SIL Levels measure Probability of Failure and in particular the Probability of a Dangerous Failure.

If you have two products, one with a SIL Level of 1 and the other with a SIL Level of 4, then you can say that the SIL 4 product is safer than the SIL 1 product because measured in accordance to the methodology required in the international standard EN61508 (that is what is referenced in the rebreather standard Clause 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003) the SIL 4 product has a lower Probability of a Dangerous Failure.

So, SIL 1 is more risky or more dangerous according to this methodology than SIL 4.

"Functional Safety" is applied to many product in our daily life. It is just not stamped on the product, but where a product can endanger life it is a means of ensuring a reasonable or acceptable level of safety.

Rebreather can kill without warning. A very dangerous failure mode.

A SIL 4 rebreather (the best level of Functional Safety) would still be not 100% safe, but it would offer a very high level of safety and protection to the user.

A SIL 4 rebreather would be safer/better (and likely more expensive) than a SIL 1 rebreather.

Unfortunately, despite Clause 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003 requires a rebreather to attain at least a SIL 1 level of Functional Safety, the rebreather industry has to this date been unable to deliver to the general public one such electronic rebreather - that is a rebreather with at least a SIL 1 level of Functional Safety.

Rebreathers do not meet the standard EN14143:2003 against which they are benchmarked and certified (hard to believe YES, but this is true).

There was a blunder, an innocent blunder some time ago, and this one slipped through.

Based on the intuition and work of Dr. Fock and the application of engineering SIL level calculations, the conclusions are the same.

Rebreather are very dangerous machines. There is no two ways about it.

They are fun to dive, but they are dangerous.

A poster asked what needs to be done to make them at least SIL 1 or safer?

The industry cannot deliver a SIL 1 electronic rebreather. The technology is not there for this at this point in time.

That is where we are now. We can only face the fact and accept it. No solution.

Rebreathers are not a tool safe enough for the typical OC recreational diver. Stick to OC Air and Nitrox for dives in the recreational range (safer and cheaper).
 
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Just as a matter of interest, what SIL level has OC equipment been certified to and what tests resulted in them receiving this rating. I can see merit to both sides of the argument here, but I would also be interested to know, should the technology be available, what exact controls would you expect to see to get a SIL level 1 or even better a SIL level 4? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
Just as a matter of interest, what SIL level has OC equipment been certified to and what tests resulted in them receiving this rating. I can see merit to both sides of the argument here, but I would also be interested to know, should the technology be available, what exact controls would you expect to see to get a SIL level 1 or even better a SIL level 4? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

The short definition of the applicability of Clause 5.13.1 of EN14143 is:

“part of the overall safety relating to the EUC (Equipment Under Control) and the EUC control system which depends on the correct functioning of the E/E/PE [Electrical, Electronic and Programmable Systems] safety-related systems, other technology safety-related systems and external risk reduction facilities.”

The safety integrity level is determined primarily from the assessment of three factors. Higher level safety integrity levels require greater compliance in all three areas. 1) Improved reliability. 2) Failure to safety. 3) Management, systematic techniques, verification and validation. SIL refers to a single method of reducing injury (as determined through risk analysis), not an entire system, nor an individual component.

To translate in layman terms, the rebreather controller and/or pPO2 monitor to include the software and anything attached thereto to include the galvanic O2 Sensors and everything else to include the rebreather must be designed and actually produced/delivered and independently assessed to meet a minimum Safety Level (i.e. SIL 1 at minimum). Human Factors (i.e. human errors like diver erros) have to be taken into account in the process.

For rebreathers, the only two entities which are qualified to make this assessment is SIRA and TUV and then they would issue a Certificate either for the "process" (i.e. the ability of the design house/manufacturer to produce compliant rebreathers to Clause 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003) or the product (i.e. the rebreather itself).

No certificate from SIRA or TUV = No Conformity.

From the documents I obtained from the U.K. authorities, SIRA and TUV had never even been involved insofar it was determined at the outset that the rebreather was "less than SIL 1" (hence it was no point wasting time and money to involve SIRA and TUV).

A 1st and 2nd stage are life-support equipment like a rebreather and require to meet an internationally recognised safety standard. Unlike a rebreather, they do not have an "E/E/PE" - so the standard applicable to regulators does not require an equivalent Clause to 5.13.1 of EN14143:2003 to be satisified.

Airplanes an Medical Devices and just about anything which is life-support and has "E/E/PE" generally would require to meet some defined level of "Functional Safety."

Best resource on the subject (regulator and rebreather standard but not Clause 5.13.1) is to go here http://www2.dan.org/fastaccess/2008TechnicalDiving. and after gaining free access go to Day 2 Morning: Rebreather Workshop and then listen to the video presentation on "Diving re-breathing apparatus: Testing and standards, UK/EU Perspective" by Dr. Anthony.
 
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