Rebreather as bailout for sat divers

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You keep missing my primary point. The loss of dexterity required to switch to any bailout system is not the root problem, hyperthermia causing the diver to blackout after a few minutes is. Respiratory loss on a 90%+ HeO2 mixture has no comparison to mixes used by recreational technical divers. A hot water suit without hot water has less thermal protection than a dive skin.

Wouldn't the respiratory losses be reduced on a CCR bailout? I don't see why they couldn't add active reheating of the inspired gas as well. At least enough joules to help offset some of the losses.

Although as a CCR diver I agree on their dubiousness as a backup system. Staying dry and "ready for action" with a breathable loop is no trivial task.
 
Wouldn't the respiratory losses be reduced on a CCR bailout?

A little, but not enough to make a meaningful difference. Keeping the absorbent warm enough to function at reasonable efficiency is challenging enough. There is a lot of surface area in the loop and the thermal conductivity of the mix is acting on lungs and the loop. The exothermic properties of the absorbent and heat conservation from the diver are pretty insignificant under these environmental conditions.

I did some consulting work in the 1990s looking at rebreather bailouts for deep (300-500M) applications in anticipation of potential regulatory requirements. We couldn't make the WOB, power, and thermal numbers work and the underlying technology has not changed except for batteries -- we had to use power-assist in the loop to meet the WOB requirements. Our parameters were -2°C water temperature because the client was investigating work in some more northern and deeper arctic fields. Granted that is much more severe than the Divex JFD Cobra is designed or certified for.

We knew that hypothermia would be a practical limitation but that wasn't part of the engineering study since the objective was to meet potential regulations specifying bailout time rather than survival time. I think everyone was shocked how fast Chris Lemons lost consciousness in the 2014 Bibby Topaz accident when his umbilical to the bell was severed. The fact that he regained consciousness when he was heated back up in such a primitive manner was even more amazing.

Umbilical severed at 80 meters in North Sea, Post #34
This has come from a Diver who was in Saturation along with the Diver whose umbilical was severed :

"Quick update for you all, Flakey was almost right but a few facts need clarifying:-
Both divers were outside the structure, looks like diver 1's umbilical got a turn around a external transponder bucket on side of structure when run off occurred. Vessel ran off 180 mts and did indeed part his umbilical. It took 26 mins to get the vessel back to over the structure, although the ROV had located him well before that, Chris the diver in question said he knew to try and conserve his gas even though he was freezing to death. He doesn't remember slipping into unconsciousness it just happened. It has been worked out that in total it took 46 mins to get him back in the bell, after 2 breaths by the bellman he started breathing on his own, he even stood up and out the way on his own steam to help in getting the bottom door down, once his breathing was restored he recovered quite quickly so they proceeded to start and warm him once the door was down and the bell was on its way up. (he was blue when they removed his hat). Diver 2 and the bellman were very professional in all of this as was the dive supervisor Craig Frederick, the lads themselves said Graig kept them focused and preempted everything.
Chris the diver climbed out of the bell and into the TL on his own steam and was warmed up further in the TL using the shower and wrapping him in towels, once stabilised he was transferred to the chamber. He appears to of made a full recovery and we have all been taking the piss at the lengths some people will go to for a short bellrun. ( obviously to try and lighten what was a very somber mood ) Chris has been very very very lucky. It brings it home just how quickly things can go pear shaped. The DP system is the prime suspect as the bridge said they had no control during the whole run off, that is being investigated with a fine toothcombe and we are all being decompressed as the investigation will be thorough and exhaustive time and getting back to work are not ab issue... I'll try and let you all know any outcomes when and if we find out !! "
 
Damn! I said I wouldn’t get involved in ping pong match but again there are some points that need to be clarified/corrected. I should say none of this is meant to be personal so I hope it's not taken as a slight, but my turn of phrase can often be misconstrued as confrontational. Apologies in advance if that's the case here.

You keep missing my primary point. The loss of dexterity required to switch to any bailout system is not the root problem, hyperthermia causing the diver to blackout after a few minutes is. Respiratory loss on a 90%+ HeO2 mixture has no comparison to mixes used by recreational technical divers. A hot water suit without hot water has less thermal protection than a dive skin.

I’m not missing the point (and I completely get you about the thermal issues with Heliox and also with HW suits), I just can’t believe the conclusion you then draw from that. Do you think we should just give the diver a few minutes of bail-out because he might be too cold to care/incapacitated after that!!?? Seriously? What about when the water is not cold enough to cause a blackout?

Wouldn't the respiratory losses be reduced on a CCR bailout? I don't see why they couldn't add active reheating of the inspired gas as well. At least enough joules to help offset some of the losses.

Although as a CCR diver I agree on their dubiousness as a backup system. Staying dry and "ready for action" with a breathable loop is no trivial task.

These commercial units are not like recreational eCCR. They don’t require any additional task loading of the diver to keep them ‘ready for action’ and they are integrated into the hat and activated by a simple turn of a valve. You can see it on the video I linked to in my last post.

These bailout rebreathers have a water jacket around the scrubber so, right up until the HW is lost (if it is lost), the absorbent is at a temperature higher than ambient. Yes it will begin to cool after HW is lost but the exothermic reaction will make up for a bit of that (how much depends on the gas mix (and therefore depth), ambient water temp etc). The unit being discussed here is CE marked to 450m and must therefore have undergone testing to prove it can last for the times and temperatures quoted with the gas required at the depth.

I did some consulting work in the 1990s looking at rebreather bailouts for deep (300-500M) applications in anticipation of potential regulatory requirements. We couldn't make the WOB, power, and thermal numbers work and the underlying technology has not changed except for batteries -- we had to use power-assist in the loop to meet the WOB requirements.

Sounds like it was an electronic unit? This new unit is entirely mechanical (and semi-closed) so no issues with power. Also the WOB must have passed Norsok U-101 and/or (slightly more generous) BS EN 14143 requirements. These are the main standards that self-contained diving respiratory equipment are designed to meet (and in the case of BS EN 14143, a ‘harmonised standard’, to be legally sold in the EU) so, although you couldn’t make an eCCR work at 300m-500m in the 90s, it would appear this company have made a semi-closed CCR work at 450m (and had it CE marked to prove it) in 2018.

Also, how do you know the tech hasn’t changed? 20-30 years is a long time in the diving world. Yes some things are tried and tested and never change, but other things move on. And again, we’re not talking eCCR here. This is a semi-closed unit that is integrated to the diver’s hat and is brought online at the turn of a valve. This isn’t a ‘perhaps’ it can be done scenario. Did you watch the video of the North Sea dive? It’s actually been done.

I think everyone was shocked how fast Chris Lemons lost consciousness in the 2014 Bibby Topaz accident

It was 2012, and how do you know how long it took? Even Chris can’t answer this for sure as he doesn’t remember going unconscious. The quote from the old thread you attached even says so!

The fact that he regained consciousness when he was heated back up in such a primitive manner was even more amazing.

He didn't! He regained consciousness after 2 breaths from the bellman. Again it even says so in the old thread quote you attached. He wasn't warmed up until later thus adding more evidence to hypothermia being only a contributory factor at best, and the main reason for blackout actually being hypoxia and/or CO2! He didn't then drown because he was wearing a hat and his airway was kept dry (rec CCR guys take heed...get a gag strap if you haven't got one already and you might just get rescued).

Ask yourself this; why would the diving company, and indeed the same vessel, bother with the new rebreather, after all they've been through, if they didn't think it was better than OC?? Bear in mind these people have the FACTS. Not half-truths and myths from internet forums.
 
Are you a commercial diver with experience at 300m+? a CCR diver? Design CCRs?

There are a number of inaccuracies in your post. Like the WOB on any CCR at those kinds of depths almost always requiring a powered unit. And how you still need to have solenoids (kept dry) powered and supplied with some form of O2 (which has to be filled) and absorbent has to be kept dry for days or week+ in a very humid environment and how the respiratory heat loss from 90+% helium is staggeringly high and how the deep ocean is brutally cold everywhere.
 
There are a number of inaccuracies in your post.

No there aren't. But let's go through what you wrote shall we...

Like the WOB on any CCR at those kinds of depths almost always requiring a powered unit.

No it doesn't. Did you actually bother to read what's already been written in this thread? Go take a look at the video Akimbo posted the link to and the other ones produced by the company before you write any more. This is a purely MECHANICAL unit. No power required. No o2 cells. No computer. No solenoids. Do you just throw this stuff out there and hope it's not challenged? You need to put the recreational eCCR mindset aside here. You know about WOB yeah? Can you tell me what the limit on WOB is for say 40RMV?

And how you still need to have solenoids (kept dry) powered

No you don't. Do you understand how a semi-closed works? Do you know what a sonic jet is?

and supplied with some form of O2 (which has to be filled)

No it doesn't. Unless it's been used up in which case there was an emergency (this is a bailout system after all)...hopefully not a regular occurrence. And it wouldn't be O2 either (another bit of rec eCCR mindset intruding?), it would only be a very low fO2 depending on depth.

and absorbent has to be kept dry for days or week+ in a very humid environment

No it doesn't. Do you understand how a sat system works? Do you know the divers return to a surface chamber at the end of their shift and the rebreathers can be taken out of the chamber (through a pressure lock), maintained/checked/absorbent changed/recharged (if necessary) by the techs, then put back in the chamber all fresh and ready for the next shift? or, if you take a look at the video (now I'm just repeating myself :banghead:) you'll see it's a cartridge system that could be passed in and out of the chamber through a lock and swapped by the divers themselves if required. They are not sat around for days/weeks. They are diligently maintained by well trained people. Again maybe a bit of rec eCCR mindset here? And, although as I've pointed out here not really relevant, I can charge the scrubber in my recreational eCCR and leave it for quite a while and it's stays dry. If yours doesn't you might want to remember to close the loop :wink:

and how the respiratory heat loss from 90+% helium is staggeringly high and how the deep ocean is brutally cold everywhere.

The one part of your post that is actually true :yeahbaby:. However the 'deep ocean' where temp is 0-3°C is generally taken to be over 1000m in some parts so there'd be no sat diving there! Not all divers rely on HW suits for thermal protection either so this 'cold shutdown' won't happen. And certainly not before all the gas is gone in an OC set. This thermal issue is a bit of a smokescreen by a previous poster and I've already debunked the example he used (which is the only one in existence as it was a one-off).

None of this sideshow address the issues I'm trying to counter in my replies though; being folks who start dismissing new kit and pontificating like they are the font of all knowledge with stuff like 'it's not robust' or 'it's too complicated' when they don't actually know this and haven't taken the trouble to even watch a few youtube vids before posting nonsense. Then, when they get proven to be incorrect by real facts (and even video), try to quietly move on to stuff about 'well, it's not required because the cold would get you before you ran out of gas' or 'you've only got 15secs' etc etc. All again shown to be incorrect (ironically by the actual example they cited to back up their claim) and all in the face of actual video of the thing being actually used at +100m in the north sea!!

I think the basic problem here is that people become blinkered by what they use themselves and forget there is more than one type of rebreather. It's not all about eCCR.

I've answered your questions, now please answer mine. Why would the people actually involved in the incident referenced in this thread (and elsewhere) take these new units if they weren't an improvement??

P.S.

Are you a commercial diver with experience at 300m+?
Not exactly, but not strictly relevant either for debunking some of the myths being promulgated here. A bit of research and actually reading stuff and/or watching the youtube vids already linked to in this thread is more than enough to do that. I'd also suggest there aren't more than a few dozen people in the world right now who are diving to +300m and the chances of them coming on here to correct the misconceptions of others is pretty slim because, basically, they are above all that.
a CCR diver?
Yes. But again not really relevant when we're talking about a commercial sat diving unit as I've hopefully shown above that a rec ccr mindset is not always helpful.
Design CCRs?
Irrelevant as the unit we're discussing isn't a CCR!
 
Do you think we should just give the diver a few minutes of bail-out because he might be too cold to care/incapacitated after that!!??

Not at all, it is a simple trade-off. Increased failure modes, primarily various types of scrubber and loop failures, reduces bailout capacity from minutes to seconds. Bailouts are a sat diver's very last resort and simply has to work. So far, I have not been able to find any report where a diver has not been able to make it back to the bell on open-circuit bailout. I have seen and heard many reports of sCCR failures in sat diving, mostly wet absorbent and damaged corrugated hoses. Fortunately none have been fatal or even close with the possible exception of Barry Cannon on Sealab III in 1968.

Significantly increasing bailout capacity has very little value if the hot water also stops. This debate has been going on for decades. As I have written several times, nobody would be happier than me if a clearly reliable solution for this problem can be found. So far, hyper and hypothermia have killed more sat divers than loss of gas. My comments have nothing to do with being ill-informed or stuck in the past.

These commercial units are not like recreational eCCR.

I am fully aware and nobody has suggested that they are. Unfortunately, the Divex units can't really be all that much more ruggedized than recreational and military CCRs and still function. It is a very difficult challenge.

One of the most important lessons I learned very early in my sat diving career is adding "safety" systems that also add potential failure modes and/or complicates rapid diagnosis of failures actually reduces diver safety. Sadly, this has been proven over and over. It is very rare that injuries related to system failure are simple. More often, three or more system and human failures conspire to kill divers, usually in ways that have not been seen or anticipated before.

There is nothing revolutionary in any of the Divex rebreather bailouts. Refinements for sure; but hardly anything of significance that could not have been produced decades ago. Larger bells and bottom hatches on newer sat systems is more of an "enabling technology" than any other factor.

He didn't! He regained consciousness after 2 breaths from the bellman.

Not exactly, pouring hot water on him began before the bellman could get the hat off and in position to administer the breaths. The bell atmosphere being blown into his lungs was also not far from body temperature. Both were critical factors.

Not all sat divers rely on HW suits for thermal protection either so if HW is lost this 'cold shutdown' won't happen.

I would be interested to know what sat systems you are referring to. I have never seen or heard of a working sat diving operation that wasn't entirely dependent on hot water for heating suits and the bell. In my experience, hot water failures have recalled a lot more divers to the bell then loss of gas.

Most sat systems that are permanently installed on DSVs (Diving Support Vessels) get hot water or steam as a shipboard utility. The sat system handles heat transfer (for steam), mixing controls, temperature control, and additional pumping capacity. There is almost always full system redundancy up to the manifold feeding bell umbilical. Portable and semi-permanent systems usually have redundant diesel-fired boilers.

Do you understand how a sat system works?

I know that this question was not directed at me, but I think it is fair to say that I do. I was extremely fortunate that my career included being a sat diver, support technician, system manufacturer, project manager, product designer, and consultant.

Your analysis is considerably more enthusiastic than any of the sat divers I know, including those with hundreds of hours locked out on the Divex SLS.

Irrelevant as the unit we're discussing isn't a CCR!

Specifically it is a semi-closed circuit rebreather, commonly abbreviated sCCR. Mixed gas sCCRs have been around a very long time. In fact, the US Navy Helium Hat that was based on the Mark V dates back to the 1930s is a mixed gas sCCR. Unfortunately, I had to train in one of these pigs in order to qualify for sat training.

full

The operating principle down to the venturi is the same though refinements are significant.
 
I think it's important to note, Akimbo is what we would call a Subject Matter Expert. If there was a PhD program in commercial diving operations, Akimbo would probably sit at the head of the board.

It's safe to say that Akimbo is well aware of all of the issues brought up in this thread, and when it comes to having a qualified opinion, his is without question.
 
I have no dog in this fight but I tend to belive what @Akimbo says as he did it and got the t shirt, hes forgot more than what most of us here know about sat diving , granted I did my com course with CUTC in the early 80 s late 70s but most of the training is still close , and I agree with what he said about OC bail out you don't need the added care a ccr bailout brings to the table ive had hot water suits fail and the get cold FAST , so for my 2 cents id go for the OC ......
 
It's safe to say that Akimbo is well aware of all of the issues brought up in this thread, and when it comes to having a qualified opinion, his is without question.

Very kind comments but I hope that any opinion that I express is justified by a complete and understandable justification. In this case, it is more about the trade-offs than right or wrong.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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