Reason for Taking Fundies

[chrpai]

There was no personal attack--just a light-hearted reference to your implied belief that all divers are regular ScubaBoard readers.

That's a reading comprehension problem on your part. Maybe you should spend more time reading and less time writing.

I only implied that anyone who was reading in the Basuc Scuba Discussions forum was a ScubaBoard reader. I've always known that very few divers know about ScubaBoard. In fact, I see over and over throughout the years that a great many people in this industry overestimate their relevance.

---------- Post added June 30th, 2013 at 06:47 PM ----------

As for "earning stripes," it is a figure of speech called a metaphor. Metaphors are not literally true, and the writer assumes the reader will recognize that. Apparently I misjudged. Sorry.

I call BS. Sadly, I've met way too many divers who don't see it as a metaphor and I suspect you are one of them. The entire dive industry is built as a giant pyramid with "levels" of accomplishment full of people who think they should be revered because of what they have done.

I begin to tell you how many times I've seen this and I'm positive you have also.

I literally overheard one (recreational) diver say to another (recreational) diver recently:

"You're the senior diver here, what do you think we should do?"

When pressed he said he made that assertion based on highest c-card.

 

[boulderjohn]

That's a reading comprehension problem on your part. Maybe you should spend more time reading and less time writing.

You're right. Reading comprehension has always been a failing of mine. I especially struggled with it when I was trying to understand Immanual Kant in graduate school. I remember thinking how much I wished my reading comprehension was better then. Sad to say it apparently has not improved.

[/COLOR]

I call BS. Sadly, I've met way too many divers who don't see it as a metaphor and I suspect you are one of them. The entire dive industry is built as a giant pyramid with "levels" of accomplishment full of people who think they should be revered because of what they have done.

I begin to tell you how many times I've seen this and I'm positive you have also.

I literally overheard one (recreational) diver say to another (recreational) diver recently:

"You're the senior diver here, what do you think we should do?"

When pressed he said he made that assertion based on highest c-card.

Are you implying that I am bragging on the fact that I have UTD certifications? If that is what you are implying, I am pretty sure the people who know me are having a pretty good laugh right now.

 

[Cyprian]

While you guys battle it out....I've been watching the poll. And while everyone here can agree that a Scubaboard poll does not reflect the majority of the diving world, I do find something very interesting in the current results. The top in the poll by a slim margin are divers that have taken Fundies and adopted the diving system. On the opposite side are those who plan to take Fundies, but not necessarily to adopt the diving system.

Chris P, while I respect your poll and am enjoying watching the numbers, I have to admit that the options for those who plan to take Fundies are a little flawed. If you were listening to TS&M or some of the others.....they were in the last group (take Fundies but not plan to adopt the system) and yet, they did. It's flawed because of the old adage "You don't know what you don't know." How can someone who has not taken a class honestly answer that they do not plan to adopt the system presented in the class? Bob Bailey took it and did not adopt it, yet he highly respects the class. I have no problem with this. And, again, Lynne took it not to really adopt the system, yet she has adopted the system. At the risk of being redundant to illustrate a point, those who have not taken the class cannot really answer this poll truthfully, and yes even this statement is argumentative. I am certain that there are those who plan to take the class for the education and never adopt the system.....but there are those who will vote such and completely change their opinion when the class is over.

So to me, the top two options are really the more telling of this poll. Do I say this because, right now #1 is winning? No, I was going to say this when it was 50/50.....but I did not want to speak up when the poll was only 1 day old. And, again, I know that we only have a small sample of divers reading.

Once again, Chris, I respect your poll and am enjoying most of the responses. Look around, I know there are like minded divers in your area.....I've dove (dived) with a few. Keep hunting, you will find them.

Safe dives.

 

[chrpai]

I'm not an expert in polls and my choices were an attempt to ask the intent of former and future students of the class in a single question. So I look at the results in terms of a vs b and c vs d.

I can see two conclusions. A) that early adopters were more likely to want to adopt the system or B) that people go in just wanting to be a better diver but get convinced to adopt the system.

I could ask it in such a way to try to capture the older divers intent before and after but I don't know if the answers would be biased. Make sense?

 

[TSandM]

You know, I have to agree totally with boulderjohn's observations that none of the skills involved in Fundies are new or unique to GUE or anybody else. Good diving is good diving -- good buoyancy, horizontal trim when you want it, quietness in the water, facile emergency procedures and good buddy skills are part of good diving.

The problem is that in too many places, they simply aren't taught.

If you want to send someone somewhere to take a class that will really make a substantial difference in their diving skill and their diving fun, what do you do? If you are lucky enough to have an active diving community and some outstanding instructors whose work you know, you can send someone there. If the person lives somewhere with which you are not familiar, or somewhere where technical or cavern classes are thin on the ground, where do you tell someone to go? The great thing about Fundies is that, with VERY few exceptions, you can head somebody to a class and know they will come out the other end feeling as though they spent their money and their time well.

Fundies is not brainwashing. It's a skills class, and an introduction to a standardized system of diving. Bob's a great example of someone who found the class useful but didn't adopt the system; Darnold999 here is another. I'm sure GUE would be happy if everyone who got a good look at the system adopted it and became a member of the organization -- but GUE doesn't teach Fundies. Individual instructors do, and although they're delighted when people adopt the system, the ones I know are also delighted if people just come out the other end with better skills and better in-water comfort than they came in.

I also think the poll is interesting. I suspect some of the people who intend to take the class will find the system and the way it is presented compelling, once they get there. I knew Fundies would be able executing skills proficiently and precisely. I was not prepared for the taste I got of operating as a truly functional diving team. That's what hooked me. That's what keeps me there today. Yesterday, I went out on a boat and did one of the dives with a young man from Southern California I had literally never in my life met or spoken to until Friday night. He slotted into a team with me and Peter as though we'd known one another for years. To me, that's priceless.

 

[beester]

I took fundies in 2010. It was a final step in a path that started at 110 feet on a north sea wreck. Something went very wrong at the worst moment and I came out of that dive really thinking very hard if I should continue this hobby. I did, started diving doubles and tried to increase my skills and knowledge. TDI extended range and advanced nitrox was nice but I didn't feel like I earned the cert, I wasn't ready.


So I took fundies, not wanting to go further on the "tech-path" but just increase my skills. I came out of it with a straight "tech-pass" , so I must have adapted to it rather well. However the most important thing that I learned during that course, the communication and team, the fact that you are really on the same page dive-wise only cemented a lot later.

I went back to my non-DIR/GUE/UTD dive-community a happy man. I learned new skills and tricks, I could hoover in the water in trim, could swim backwards, could do a propper ascend, etc. It took a while before I dived again with other DIR divers. When I did and started training for cave and after I took cave the penny finaly dropped.

What I was searching after the incident on the north sea could not be only solved by skills and tricks, that's only part of the equation. Team, awareness, communication, training are as important. If you are as dive-buddy's or team on the same page it reduces the hassle and stress so much, it's unbelievable.

Does that mean that I no longer dive with non DIR (gue/utd) trained divers, of course not. Next week (if not blown out) I'll be wreckdiving with GUE divers, the weekend after wreckdiving with guys from my local community who are not DIR. In August and September I'll probably go cave-diving. Since I don't have alot of experience yet in caves those dives will be only with GUE divers.

So I took alot out of fundies, and I dive alot with DIR divers. When I'm not I try to stick to the same principles but of course there are going to be more compromises than when diving strictly within DIR.

 

[gypsyjim]

I am going to disagree with part of what Cyprian says.

I see the poll as being two parts.

1) First two questions relate to results from divers who have taken Fundies training.
2) The second part of the poll is focused on the intent of those planning on taking that class.

It seems to me that the overall poll suggests that a majority of the SB divers who plan to take Fundies training are mostly focused on expanding their skill base, rather than activity pursuing DIR.
Once those divers have taken Fundies I see this poll suggesting a shift, with slightly more than 1/2 actually, fully adopting the DIR approach.

A perfect poll, maybe not, but it is certainly gathering interesting insights....

..............as well as attracting some who would rather argue than discuss. That sort, on the internet are like ants or flies at a picnic. Nothing you do will keep them out.

 

[Cyprian]

I'm not an expert in polls and my choices were an attempt to ask the intent of former and future students of the class in a single question. So I look at the results in terms of a vs b and c vs d.

I can see two conclusions. A) that early adopters were more likely to want to adopt the system or B) that people go in just wanting to be a better diver but get convinced to adopt the system.

I could ask it in such a way to try to capture the older divers intent before and after but I don't know if the answers would be biased. Make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. I was taking the poll from a one question standpoint instead of separating it into two. The early conclusions that you drew in post #20 in this thread lead me to believe that you were asking the question to the entire group versus 2 groups. My mistake on that. Using the word "flawed" was for lack of a better word on my part as I was drawing conclusions from the poll without considering the two groups.

---------- Post added July 1st, 2013 at 10:06 AM ----------

I am going to disagree with part of what Cyprian says.

I see the poll as being two parts.

1) First two questions relate to results from divers who have taken Fundies training.
2) The second part of the poll is focused on the intent of those planning on taking that class.

It seems to me that the overall poll suggests that a majority of the SB divers who plan to take Fundies training are mostly focused on expanding their skill base, rather than activity pursuing DIR.
Once those divers have taken Fundies I see this poll suggesting a shift, with slightly more than 1/2 actually, fully adopting the DIR approach.

A perfect poll, maybe not, but it is certainly gathering interesting insights....

..............as well as attracting some who would rather argue than discuss. That sort, on the internet are like ants or flies at a picnic. Nothing you do will keep them out.

Jim,

Good post and good points. I will agree with what you are saying as well. Again, in my mind, I was not considering this to be a poll of two groups as much as it being a question to everyone, hence why I said you really cannot ask the question to those who have not taken the class. That position was more along the lines of a couple of early posters who said to ask them when the class is over.

And, yes sir, it is gathering interesting insights...I hope more chime in.

 

[chrpai]

FWIW, I didn't include options like "I don't plan on taking fundies" because I'm not interested in that group of divers.

A proper survey would probably ask a series of questions along the lines of are you considering taking fundies, have you taken it, what year did you first start considering, what year did you take it and so on to get the data for trending.

This was the best I could do in a simple poll.

 

[boulderjohn]

You know, I have to agree totally with boulderjohn's observations that none of the skills involved in Fundies are new or unique to GUE or anybody else. Good diving is good diving -- good buoyancy, horizontal trim when you want it, quietness in the water, facile emergency procedures and good buddy skills are part of good diving.

The problem is that in too many places, they simply aren't taught.

This is correct, and it is very much the problem.

I taught the two pool sessions of a course whose content is very similar to Fundies this past weekend. I had a single student whose motivation was to get a solid basis in diving preparatory to more advanced diving. This student was only OW certified a month before, taking that class during a tropical vacation. He had been taught all of his skills on his knees, and he had never had a discussion about trim, etc. At the end of two pool sessions, he looked like a completely different diver, with passable skills in frog kicks, modified frog kicks, modified flutter kicks, helicopter turns, and back kicks. He could do all his basic skills in horizontal trim. Another instructor in the pool at the time mistakenly thought he was an advanced tech student with whom I was working, and he was shocked to learn that this is a beginning student. We are actually teaching the class concurrent with him taking AOW.

He was taking a PADI distinctive specialty class to learn these skills. Only a few instructors are certified to teach it. Where would he go for such instruction if he had not found this class? He pretty much would have had to seek out a GUE Fundies class, and there is only one offered anywhere in the region that I know if. "That I know of" is a critical phrase. He just blundered into this class by happening to ask the right person about the local options for advanced training. There may be other classes around that I don't know of myself. There are a handful of tech instructors in the area, but you can't usually get into such a class as a beginning diver. Remember that the original purpose of Fundies was to prepare divers for cave diving certification.

But I think it is changing. I think there is a quiet revolution beginning, a revolution in which the recreational diving world is beginning to realize that some of the skills, equipment, and practices long associated with technical diving can be a benefit to recreational divers as well. I have a draft of an article about it pretty well prepared. I think I am going to put a title that has something like the phrase "Scuba's Middle Path" in it. People who want to take a class like this but don't have a local option for it can help this quiet revolution by going to a local shop and asking what they have to do to get this kind of training.