Quiz - Recreational Dive Planner™ - Total Minutes

A diver plans to do three dives using minimum surface intervals. See question on Post 1

  • a. Metric 278 minutes - Imperial 240 minutes

  • b. Metric 269 minutes - Imperial 231 minutes

  • c. Metric 262 minutes - Imperial 229 minutes

  • d. Metric 253 minutes - Imperial 220 minutes


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I assume that "appropriate(d) order" means "deepest dive first."

For those who do not know the history, about 20 years ago a conference on what are called reverse profiles (doing deeper dives after shallower dives) was held, trying to figure out where the "deepest dive first" rule came from. They could find no research indicating a reason for the rule. The earliest mention they could find of it was a suggestion (not a rule) in the 1972 PADI OW manual. In subsequent editions, the language of that suggestion evolved into a rule. PADI representation at the conference had no idea who had come up with the original suggestion, why it was suggested, or why it became a rule. The conference (almost) concluded that there was no reason for the rule, but one participant argued strenuously for it, especially on deeper and technical dives, so they left it as a recommendation for technical diving. Even though that was 20 years ago, dive operations around the world routinely follow the "deepest dive first" rule to this day.

Although the conference did not find a reason for the suggestion/rule, the exercise in this thread can provide an example of the most likely reason. If you do the dives in a different order, you will get a very different answer. Very different. In 1972, pretty much everyone, including PADI, was using the US Navy tables, which did surface intervals based on the 120 minute compartment, leading to very long surface intervals between dives. When you plan dives using any tables, you get the shortest surface intervals if you do the deepest dive first, and with the US Navy tables, that difference could be huge. Even with the PADI tables using the 60 minute compartment, the difference can be significant.

So, there is probably no physiological reason preventing you from doing a deeper dive after a shallower dive, as long as you have the required surface interval for that second dive. If the reverse profile conference were held again, that conclusion might be unanimous, because the lone person claiming there was a physiological reason, Bruce Wienke, died earlier this year. Wienke created the RGBM algorithm used in many dive computers. That algorithm is proprietary, so I don't know if he included a penalty for a reverse profile, but it would not surprise me if people using RGBM computers will suddenly find their NDLs shortened if the second dive goes deeper than the first.
 
I assume that "appropriate(d) order" means "deepest dive first."

For those who do not know the history, about 20 years ago a conference on what are called reverse profiles (doing deeper dives after shallower dives) was held, trying to figure out where the "deepest dive first" rule came from. They could find no research indicating a reason for the rule. The earliest mention they could find of it was a suggestion (not a rule) in the 1972 PADI OW manual. In subsequent editions, the language of that suggestion evolved into a rule. PADI representation at the conference had no idea who had come up with the original suggestion, why it was suggested, or why it became a rule. The conference (almost) concluded that there was no reason for the rule, but one participant argued strenuously for it, especially on deeper and technical dives, so they left it as a recommendation for technical diving. Even though that was 20 years ago, dive operations around the world routinely follow the "deepest dive first" rule to this day.

Although the conference did not find a reason for the suggestion/rule, the exercise in this thread can provide an example of the most likely reason. If you do the dives in a different order, you will get a very different answer. Very different. In 1972, pretty much everyone, including PADI, was using the US Navy tables, which did surface intervals based on the 120 minute compartment, leading to very long surface intervals between dives. When you plan dives using any tables, you get the shortest surface intervals if you do the deepest dive first, and with the US Navy tables, that difference could be huge. Even with the PADI tables using the 60 minute compartment, the difference can be significant.

So, there is probably no physiological reason preventing you from doing a deeper dive after a shallower dive, as long as you have the required surface interval for that second dive. If the reverse profile conference were held again, that conclusion might be unanimous, because the lone person claiming there was a physiological reason, Bruce Wienke, died earlier this year. Wienke created the RGBM algorithm used in many dive computers. That algorithm is proprietary, so I don't know if he included a penalty for a reverse profile, but it would not surprise me if people using RGBM computers will suddenly find their NDLs shortened if the second dive goes deeper than the first.

It's obvious from the RDP:

Say you wanted to do a 40 foot dive and a 130 foot dive to the maximum allowed NDL's in the shortest time.
Let's do the 40 footer first: The NDL is 140 minutes and puts you in PG Z. Take a minimum SI of 3 hours and you go back to PG A which will allow you 7 minutes at 130 feet. This includes 3 minutes of residual nitrogen. So you get 7 out of the 10 minutes allowed as if the deep dive was a single dive or only 70 percent of the maximum allowable bottom time on the second dive.

Doing the deep dive of 130 feet first give you puts you in PG H with a minimum SI of 1:48 to get back to PG A. Then you have 131 minutes (9 minutes of residual nitrogen) allowed at 40 feet. That's 131/140= 94% of the maximum allowed bottom time as if that was a single dive.

So not only do you have a much shorter SI (almost half) by doing the deeper dive first, but you maximize the amount of bottom time you are allowed. So while doing the shallow dive last may not be a safety issue, it definitely is important to maximize bottom time and reduce SIs.

eta: It's clear that maxing out NDLs in deeper dives result in PGs that are 'above' the PGs that result from maxing out NDLs in shallow dives. This is what leads to significantly shorter SIs.
 
Only 9 votes so far on today's quiz, pretty equally split, look forward to the spoiler answer later today :)

I’m betting that a lot of folks missed the instruction to account for safety stops if they are required. Most, or all, I can’t remember required safety stops as they were in the grey area of RDP.
 
I’m betting that a lot of folks missed the instruction to account for safety stops if they are required. Most, or all, I can’t remember required safety stops as they were in the grey area of RDP.
The other thing likely missed is the "WXYZ" rule.
 
I assume that "appropriate(d) order" means "deepest dive first."
Definitely, if you want the best management of your nitrogen levels.
 
I'm sure I'm missing something basic (and I profess to know tables back & forth)--
I arranged the dives deepest to shallowest (to satisfy the "appropriate order" wording).
So, first dive to 108' for 13 minutes yields a pressure group of I.
How do I find the minimum surface interval? Isn't that usually given in order to find the next pressure group?

I concur about leaving the tables questions but enjoyed them.
 
I'm sure I'm missing something basic (and I profess to know tables back & forth)--
I arranged the dives deepest to shallowest (to satisfy the "appropriate order" wording).
So, first dive to 108' for 13 minutes yields a pressure group of I.
How do I find the minimum surface interval? Isn't that usually given in order to find the next pressure group?

I concur about leaving the tables questions but enjoyed them.
Tom, look on Table 3 and find out what PG you need to be in so you can have a 54 min dive at 50 ft, then go back to Table 2 and find out how much SI you need to drop from I to ....whatever.
 
Tom, look on Table 3 and find out what PG you need to be in so you can have a 54 min dive at 50 ft, then go back to Table 2 and find out how much SI you need to drop from I to ....whatever.
Yeah thanks. Forgot that. Think the example of 3 dives confused me, though it's the same procedure.
Oh crap, I did miss the safety stops AND WXYZ. Time to retire....
 
I want to see the fully worked out solution...

My try, w/o SS calculated in.... (and admittedly, I likely have messed up)

order of deepest to shallowest:

108/13 -> PG I, and to dive #2 you need a PG min of G (0:13 SI) [but 100+' means minimum of 1 hr SI so rules broken]
50/54 from G -> Y (pg Y, so 3 hr SI minimum per rules) -> A
13 + 13 + 54 + 180 + 92 = 352 with rules broken on SI #1



108/13 -> PG I, and to dive #2 you need a pg min of G (0:13 SI) [but 100+' means minimum of 1 hr SI so rules broken]
50/54 from G -> Y (min SI to do 40/92 is PG = G, so can dive w/ 74 min SI)[again PG Y = 3 hr SI so rules broken]
13 + 13 + 54 + 74 + 92 = 246 with all rules broken


Try #3 (following rues)
108/13 -> pg=I, 60 min SI = PG B
50/54 -> PG U
min SI to do 40/92 is PG = G (62 min SI)
13 + 60 + 54 + 62 + 92 = 281

Nothing is a choice...

somehow I got 232 hacking through the eRDP with no idea what I was doing....
13+3+12+54+3+52+92+3
 
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