Quick Maui review- pictures

[KrisB]

I can't remember if I heard the snorkeling story though. I might have to get back there to hear it.

I'll give you the short story -- Emi was the DM for a group of divers that was misplaced by an incompetent captain (no longer working the dive industry on Maui) diving from a boat with questionable safety equipment (whose management has changed, and the problems fixed) while diving the Molokini Backwall. They were floating as a group for several hours before being rescued. She credits her snorkel with a significant amount of comfort and safety during this ordeal and won't dive without one now.

I guess to you it seems like a very scary dive...

I don't think you'll find many instructors that would call that a "very scary dive" for themselves. But you'll find that those of us that have further training as to problems occurring underwater, how to avoid and resolve them will tell you that this experience was *stupid*.

From his description, it was a bounce dive... easy going down, easy going up...

I don't recall seeing any discussion on the duration of the dive -- but if it was short enough to call it a "bounce", that further exacerbates the problem. Bounce dives are less safe than ones that you take extra time to ascent *very* slowly.

especially with an instructor....It's a huge difference for someone with 25 dives doing it solo, or with someone right there holding their hand...

You're right -- and that could be the only reason he came back alive from this venture. That doesn't change the fact that the rules were broken, and as someone else I know would put it: "thank goodness the ocean wasn't looking for fresh blood that day."

I think the DM/Instructor made an informed decision and decided the diver was safe for the dive...

Sean, you're not getting it. There is no informed decision here -- this diver had no business that deep -- he lacks both the training and the experience. It doesn't matter if he was with an instructor or not. Check any technical agency's minimum standards for entry to their deep diver programs (i.e. deeper than 130'). He doesn't even qualify to enter into training under a qualified technical instructor let alone make the dive simply under the supervision of a recreational instructor.

clearly he was right.

Lucky does not mean the same as right. The reasoning process here was flawed -- but the DM and diver were lucky.

The diver had a great experience and was so happy he even shared it with us!

Really? He mentioned this in one of his more recent posts...:

I can't say that I really enjoyed that depth

I'm truly glad the diver hooked up with an dive op that he could have fun with. Personally I'd hate to have some control-freak PADI cop be my dive guide...that would definitely put a damper in my diving...

You'll find that the training standards of IANTD are similar -- in order to enter into the training for the "Technical Diver" rating (the lowest rating that trains for dives deeper than 130'), you must be an "Advanced Nitrox Diver or Advanced Recreational Trimix Diver as well as Deep Diver" and be under the supervision of a "Technical Instructor".

I hope you're still glad that dives like this are happening when one too many incidents occur and diving the Backwall becomes disallowed by the State, or even worse, Molokini is closed to people entirely.

Please, for the sake of the enjoyment of other divers, do not support or advocate this sort of reckless behaviour, especially at a site as sensitive as the Molokini Marine Life Conservation District.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I guess to you it seems like a very scary dive... .......

Well I guess you must have me pegged after reading 1 comment.....do yourself a favour and don't misinterperet common sense and training with fear.

........someone with 25 dives........I think the DM/Instructor made an informed decision and decided the diver was safe for the dive............

Well, I hope that the DM's ability to "make an infomred decision" never catch up with him because it is inevitable.

.........I'd hate to have some control-freak PADI cop be my dive guide...that would definitely put a damper in my diving......

Yeah I REALLY hate those damn safety conscious Dive Masters. What a pain they are eh?


My recommendation....start your brain before diving. You might be around to give bad advice longer.

 

[weenerdoggs]

Nice Monk Seal! And very cool you got to see a grey shark in addition to our common white tip friends.

I want their boat

 

[Shaka Doug]

Nice Monk Seal! And very cool you got to see a grey shark in addition to our common white tip friends.

I want their boat

It's a beautiful boat, isn't it? It even has a warm freshwater shower too!!!

I know John and Emi very well. They are highly experienced divers and go out practically every day. I would trust them with my loved ones on any day on the water.

Please be reminded that it wasn't either of them underwater that day, it was someone else who was working for them. A trained, certified and credentialed DM. As much as you may want to have control over your employees, if they are diving and going to 140' with someone, you really wouldn't know until after the fact (which arguably might be too late). I doubt that the dive briefing discussed going that deep. I'd be surprised if they were actually planning on hitting even 110' or 120'. I've been deeper than that at Molokini before and it's one of those places where it's pretty easy to do and seems like a stroll in the park for me (I also have over 7000 dives so I am hardly a noob).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling others to go that deep, just saying that I have and had no problem but I am an expert so it's very different. The trick at Molokini is to hold yourself back from going that deep really. It's so calm, clear, warm, beautiful, peaceful, full of fish, etc. etc. It's like a giant swimming pool! it's very easy to do and like many people have pointed out, it can also be very dangerous. Clear water death is something to beware of there.

I am willing to bet that the DM that did this has been advised to not let it happen again. He may have made a mistake. Maybe Steve the Pirate made the mistake (or maybe both did?) of going down too deep but appeared calm and collected and so they just gradually worked their way up. Maybe there was a bouyancy issue or something else? Only they know for sure. What would you want the DM to do in that case? Get pissed off and make the diver go up immediately to be reprimanded? That could be a worse move. You have to call it as you see it and none of us were there to see what really happened. I suspect they were only down that deep for a moment or two and then spent the rest of the dive working their way shallower. It was 140' max so not that extreme although yes, deeper than considered to be accesible to most of the recreational divers out there.

I too am against the thought of the reef police telling me what to do on a dive. I think I already can be trusted to know right from wrong. I believe in supervision but not of a controlling nature. It's important to keep divers safe and keep Molokini open to everyone. It's best if people are not only safe, but also satisfied with their experience. You read it all the time in the reviews about how divers don't like it when they are forced to come up early with a half tank of air left or stuck on crowded boats.The dive could be the best ever but they gripe about the boat ride being a little bumpy or wet. Those people take their money somewhere else next time around. We don't need that here.

I'd tell anyone to go out with John and Emi. I know they would be safe and have a good time. I feel the same way about B&B. That's important to me to feel confident in my referrals. I know both Ops and repeatedly recommend them. So ease up on Steve the Pirate and John and Emi. Otherwise you will find others less likely to tell their experience in a public forum like this for fear of also being chastised. That wouldn't be right either.

I'm glad this thread was posted. I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from it.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Doug, what I completely disagree with is people coming onto a forum such as this and basically telling those that are reading it to ignore your training limits. People are far more likely to get injured or die when diving outside of their training and comfort zone. The problem is, today it is 10' extra (as OW it is actually 50' but who is counting), tomorrow it could be..."I'll just go into the cave a little bit". People get caught in the trap of "Nothing happened last time so those trainers don't know what I am capable of. I am special. I am better than most divers in my situation."

At no point did I chastise the OP. He can be accused of going on a "trust me" dive. However I do believe that the dive op should be. They in my opinion were negligent. If someone needs to go to 140' with OW certification and 25 dives then they are a maverick and dangerous to everybody around them. From what I could gather from the OP, it was the DM that took them to that depth and not the DM chasing the customer "allowing them to do that". He knowingly made the judgement call "they look like good divers that can "handle the effects of narcosis or any other host of possible problems at 140 fsw". To me, I do not believe that this is something that any dive shop should be proud of. I agree about the Scuba Police....we are free to do what we want when we are on our own. When diving with a dive op, the DM can cater to the divers easily without implanting the notion in a new diver that the recreational depth limits mean nothing. So when someone takes a Nitrox course, it will be "Oh those MOD's are only recommendations. I can go deeper" ...... bring on Ox-Tox . If I am being led by a DM, I expect that he wil conduct his dives in a safe manner which will accommodate the divers in his or her group. If I am unhappy, I tell them and yes then I may take my money elsewhere. If a dive shop sells out its training and just blows past all safety recommendations the it is not somewhere I want to trust to keep my loved ones and I safe.

And, since there are still people that are arguing that there is nothing wrong with a DM taking an OW diver with 25 dives to 140', then we have learned nothing.

 

[ScubaSeanMaui]

Thanks for elaborating on the post Doug. I think you summed it up very nicely!


Sean

 

[Shaka Doug]

Hey Scuba Steve, have you ever dove Molokini Crater?

 

[stevethepirate]

Wow. I do not have easy access to the internet, but I have been able to check my email every once in a while, and saw that this thread has been blowing up.
Basically, I was going to try to defend myself and the dive op again, but realized that it has all been said.

KrisB- Good job using that quote. I said I did not particularly enjoy it. What that means is that I did not think that what I saw down at 140 merited the significant decrease in length of the dive. It was a 39 minute dive, by the way.

Doug- I know that you and John are buddies. Thanks for chiming in here.

And finally, I think it may be a good idea for this thread to be locked. Everything that needs to be said has already been put out there... ten times. This thread has run its course. I'm glad for those of you that have been able to show your righteousness on here, and thank you to those of you that have stood up for me/the dive op a bit.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Hey Scuba Steve, have you ever dove Molokini Crater?

No I have not Doug.

 

[StacyT]

My guess here would be that stevethepirate most likely ignored the dive breifing, and the DM most likely went down to retreive him, as Doug mentioned, and likely did not give him a hard time about it. I really doubt the dive breifing started with "Lets drop to 140 and than start a slow ascent from there." Of coarse only Steve and the DM could answer that question.