Question for Instructors

[triton94949]

Just to clarify, my instructor didnt pass me on the 20th attempt. After I was able to do the skill he made me repeat it over and over to make sure I was comfortable.

Good instructor.

 

[Scuba]

and they finally get it, and can duplicate the task with no real difficulty, then they have completed the task in my opinion

Hey, I just quoted myself. Feels odd.....

No matter the language used to discribe it, I think we all end up with the same basic standard. Walter uses the word mastery, but Cancun Mark made it a little more clear as to what the term "mastery" means by the following "Mastery with regards to motor skills is defined as being able to perform the skill in a reasonably fluid, calm and repeatable manner." I used the phrase "can duplicate the task with no real difficulty". They all end up with the same results in the end.

Precisely my point. The language sounds great, until we look at its possible application using poor judgment. Duplicate, repeatable, no difficulty, fluid and calm, I feel they have it...... First two times while kneeling down in five feet of water? Twice after repeatedly having great difficulty the first twenty tries, as mentioned? Taking 5 exhalations to clear each time?

I like Walters approach, it would be a good starting point to use in setting specific requirements, setting mastery aside, but with a definition for adequacy at OW level.

I have no doubt you and many other instructors, probably the vast majority, use good judgment and would still go beyond what a higher standard would dictate. The issue is one of those who do not. Those who will exploit any weakess in the system. The point I am trying to make is the weak points in this system are huge, and easy to exploit by those inclined to do so and those with less admirable judgment. They are not that difficult to minimize to some extent, by requiring certain dictated specified parameters and tasks be met. Less personal judgment involved to help insure a higher minimum, better quality result. And it is in everyone's best interest.

You guys are in the best position to apply a steady and constant pressure for change before the real pressure for change comes from the outside. Some of you can probably have a major impact in this regards. This all pressuposses that you see a need for change, which frankly, I think many have become too comfortable with the status quo, the view reflected back from your personal approach, or simply disillusioned with the lack of impact some of your suggestions have had.

 

[scubamate]

My point exactly scubamate "They do not go to open water until these skill are done to MY satisfaction." There is no standard, it is the instructors call, and every instructor has a different level of satisfaction.

There is a standard, albeit, a little vague and it's been quoted a couple of times. The agencies IMHO, are allowing the instructor some flexibility in judgement. My belief is all skills must be performed correctly, without signs of distress or inability to do it. i.e., If a student takes a breath or two while clearing the mask, but clears it without "freaking" out or stopping, to regain composure, etc. I will allow them to move on.

 

[scubatoys]

One of the first things you learn when going through an instructor class, is how to properly state a learning objective for a particular skill. And this is normally quantitative. For example on mask clearing,

"The next skill you will learn is how to clear a flooded mask. By the time we finish this skill, you will be able to demonstrate to me your ability to clear a fully flooded mask on one breath."

Now when I became a Padi Instructor, I asked the examiner at the IE this very same question.... How do I make the judgement call if the student did it "good enough" to "pass". And their stock, from the book answer was "when the student has achieved the learning objective of the skill..."

The problem I had with that is there are students that can clear a mask on one breath, but they are not comfortable with the skill... and so I feel they should get more time to repeat it until they are very comfortable with each skill...

Then I did a Naui cross over... Now a Naui Course Director - so I get to evaluate instructor candidates... the rules are a bit different. With Naui we have the "loved one" mantra. If your loved one... your child, wife, mother, etc was in your class and performed the skill exactly like this student... would you let them dive without you there? If so, they got it... if not - work with them some more.

Same rule applies to all levels. As a Course Director, I sign someone off as an instructor only if I would let them teach my child, or wife, or brother, etc. If I would not want him teaching my kid - why would I let him teach anyone elses?

Or rescue... If my loved one had a problem in the water and I could not be there to help, would I feel confident in this individual rescuing my loved one? If not - time for more practice.

It's difficult to define things like "reasonably fluid, calm and repeatable manner" - so we just break it down to the very simple... If my kid cleared his mask like that - I'd make him work on it more... or I'd feel confident in his ability to handle a mask situation... same for the rest of the skills.

 

[Walter]

I have no doubt you and many other instructors, probably the vast majority, use good judgment and would still go beyond what a higher standard would dictate.

Don't bet the farm. Watching lots of instructors over the years, my opinion is most are less than adequate.

 

[scubamate]

Don't bet the farm. Watching lots of instructors over the years, my opinion is most are less than adequate.

I partially agree with Walter on this. I've seen a lot of instructors that require a higher standard, (I require my students to receive an 80% or higher on the final), the vast majority of the others use the minimum standards on most skills and then I've know of 2 DMs that achieved this rating for a 6-pack and $300.00. (Literally)

For me, most of my decisions are based on what my conscience would bear. If something happened to a diver I certified I want to make sure it's not something I forgot or was lax in teaching.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

I had huge problems with mask clearing. Im sure my instructor made me clear more then 20 times. Im glad he didnt give up on me.

I'm sure I make students clear zillions of times in the pool. They don't go to open water until they do it easily without much stress.

Some totally get it the first time they try but I still make them clear zillions of times because everyone is going to have a little trouble somewhere along the way. I like seeing students overcome obstacles.

The key for me is, are they relaxed? If they are we go to open water, if they aren't they go to the next class.

Now if someone takes 3 or 4 efforts to clear their mask, they aren't ready in my book. We work on it until they are.

 

[scubapimp]

Mastery is being able to complete the task or skill in a CALM, FLUID, REPEATABLE Manner.

 

[Thalassamania]

What is considered "completing your skills competently"
The reason I am asking this is I don't think there is any standard among training agencies for completing confined and open water skills. Take for example the skill of mask clearing, if it takes a student 20 attempts to clear his or her mask is that acceptable? Should they pass or fail? One instructor may pass them while another may not. Is this a judgement call with instructors?

It should be less a question of "completing your skills competently" which implies doing something correctly once, and should be more a question of how confident can you are that the next time the student attempts the skill they will perform it successfully. At least that is the measure that I use. When a student fails to perform a skill properly just trying to do it again is rather a bad approach. The skill needs to be broken down into smaller sets, each of which will be a success, and then all those small steps need to be merged back into the entire skill.

 

[The Chairman]

What is considered "completing your skills competently"?

Would I feel good about them diving with my son or daughter? If not, then they aren't ready to dive without me. But I have to admit that I also have a really selfish standard as well: Will my students' skill (or lack thereof) cast me in a bad light amongst my peers?

However, student performance is a two way street: they have to want to learn as much as I want to teach them. If I can't interest them in excellence, I try to get them to competence. If I can't get them to attempt competence, then they need another instructor. I can't fix laziness or stupid and I won't waste my time trying.