Question for Instructors

[jimmyboy]

This is a great question. May I ask why the interest? PM me if you wish.

The reason I ask this is because I am working on my DM and working with instructors and students in the pool, and every instructor seems to have a different level of satisfaction.

 

[jimmyboy]

I guess I need to clarify my comments before I get linched. I do move on after the student clears the mask or performs their skill even if there are problems. At the end of the pool training I allow extra time for them to practice and get used to moving around a little more. I make it a point for myself or my DMs to work with students on skills they had issues with. We work with them until the skill is performed correctly and rather smoothly. I don't look for perfection, I look for control and the successful completion of the skill. They do not go to open water until these skill are done to my satisfaction.

My point exactly scubamate "They do not go to open water until these skill are done to MY satisfaction." There is no standard, it is the instructors call, and every instructor has a different level of satisfaction.

 

[GDI]

Doppler welcome to SB

Walter you're right on the mark. A skill needs to be done without any anxiety or distress. Other skills unlike the mask skills need repeated practice so they become second nature to perform

 

[Walter]

Actually, I think no mask breathing and mask clearing also need practice and need to be second nature. I have them master those skills while still working on skin diving, prior to introducing SCUBA. They repeat them several times on SCUBA later in the class.

 

[Mako Mark]

Doppler welcome to SB

Walter you're right on the mark. A skill needs to be done without any anxiety or distress. Other skills unlike the mask skills need repeated practice so they become second nature to perform

Walter is right, there is a jugement call involved in what is mastery.

A student that requires 20 attempts has:

Significant problems or difficulty, even though they perhaps did finally meet the objective of clearing the mask

this is not good enough, as walter states, the student is required to master the skill not just perform it.
Mastery with regards to motor skills is defined as being able to perform the skill in a reasonably fluid, calm and repeatable manner.

My call, is basically if I think they can do it again next year, without practicing, without me there under normal diving conditions, then they are done. If not, they need more coaching and practice..

 

[Scuba]

I may very well be speaking to myself, but nonetheless.

Mask clearing must be accomplished by the student or he can not be certified. Correct? Agency requirement, not up to instructor discretion.

This is a standard.

Completing skills competently, addresses the issue of performance. This is another required standard that must be met. One undefined by the training agency, which is left to instructor discretion and judgment. Correct? Nice way to shift liability.

I don't mean to intrude on your professional business, except for my concern that failure to hold training practioners to a defined minimum performance standard increases the risk of certifying divers who have not shown they can adequately handle a slight underwater incident. The lack of definition also makes it easier for instructors, who fail to exercise satisfactory judgment, to shift blame to the student, since there are no detailed codified rules that can be enquired of.

Much is made about the learners permit. But the certification also acts as a license to facilitate practice. To use drivers as an analogy. Agency standards dictate driver must demonstrate he can stay between the lines on the road delineating the lane. Problem is, where the lines are is up to a trained professional's personal judgment - or misjudgment. I'm sure glad driving standards are much more detailed and rigorous.

Raising the bar, if only slightly, should be to everyones benefit. Personally, this is a minimum amount of regards and respect owed students.

I'm being harshly critical, as I don't see anyone directly addressing these issues to assuage my, and no doubt, other's concerns.

Diving is performed in a non life sustaining environment for humans. This is not baking cookies, where if you burn them you can throw another batch in.

 

[ScubaTwo]

I had huge problems with mask clearing. Im sure my instructor made me clear more then 20 times. Im glad he didnt give up on me. I have had my mask kicked off by someone else by mistake, lost my mask from the tank valve hitting the strap and have had no probs recovering and clearing. It did take me longer then some ppl to learn but he gave me a ton of conficence by not giving up on me. I dont know why I had such probs. When it came to swimming with the reg and no mask I found that easy. I think I just had a block. Thanks to all you patient instructors

 

[pt40fathoms]

and they finally get it, and can duplicate the task with no real difficulty, then they have completed the task in my opinion.

Hey, I just quoted myself. Feels odd.....

No matter the language used to discribe it, I think we all end up with the same basic standard. Walter uses the word mastery, but Cancun Mark made it a little more clear as to what the term "mastery" means by the following "Mastery with regards to motor skills is defined as being able to perform the skill in a reasonably fluid, calm and repeatable manner." I used the phrase "can duplicate the task with no real difficulty". They all end up with the same results in the end.

Do we ask OW students to perform the skills as a Dive Master would before we take them out in the open water? I would hope not, as this is a level of competancy called "demonstration quality", and is not what the OW course is about. When you become an instructor, you will have to ask yourself "is this person competant enough to safely take out to the open water" and "if I certify them, will they have what they need to dive safely". The answer must be yes to both questions, and you may notice that both deal with safety first.

 

[triton94949]

What is considered "completing your skills competently"
The reason I am asking this is I don't think there is any standard among training agencies for completing confined and open water skills. Take for example the skill of mask clearing, if it takes a student 20 attempts to clear his or her mask is that acceptable? Should they pass or fail? One instructor may pass them while another may not. Is this a judgement call with instructors?

The standards normally say "successfully without undue stress."

That normally is interpreted to mean when called upon to do so, in a reasonably quick amount of time.

When a student has problems with certain skills, they are usually given the option to retake the class within 12 months without charge.

A good instructor will not pass students willy nilly just because they cleared their mask on the 20th attempt in the pool and then on the 20th attemp in the open water. But not all instructors are equally good.

 

[ScubaTwo]

The standards normally say "successfully without undue stress."

That normally is interpreted to mean when called upon to do so, in a reasonably quick amount of time.

When a student has problems with certain skills, they are usually given the option to retake the class within 12 months without charge.

A good instructor will not pass students willy nilly just because they cleared their mask on the 20th attempt in the pool and then on the 20th attemp in the open water. But not all instructors are equally good.

Just to clarify, my instructor didnt pass me on the 20th attempt. After I was able to do the skill he made me repeat it over and over to make sure I was comfortable.