Question about deco stops when diving with air.

[AndyNZ]

So I think PADI considers the certificate makes a diver more experienced, not me.

Actually, PADI changed the name to "adventures in diving" because the course is intended to "advance your education"... not make you an advanced diver.

You are right about your comment diving beyond the limits. But during that dive I was the only one who has OW certificate. So the instructer decided to exceed the limits. That's it. My instructer is a tech diver and he is exteremely experienced. He has over 10.000 dives. So he knows what he does.

I'm always skeptical of anyone claiming to have over 10,000 dives. If you did any average of three dives a day, that's 3333 days of diving. Or nine years of diving, doing three dives *every day of the year*.

Sure, some people do have that number of dives - but generally the ones that boast about it are normally lying, or at least exaggerating to rub their ego.

The fact that the instructor put you in a situation where you were well beyond your competence zone makes me question their competence as well.

 

[impulse]

No, Impulse. THANK YOU. This is exactly why agencies used to teach (and some still do) decompression diving theory, procedures and tables in OW courses. You made an honest mistake. The only difference between what you did and what I've witnessed and have been part of as a trained decompression diver is that I know what to do when we've exceeded the planned bottom time or depth. You've illustrated why training agencies should never have removed more complete training for OW divers. Some basic deco diving understanding and some rescue training goes a long way.

Through your mistake, you had an experience and learned a valuable lesson. Until you get more training, just be more careful in the future. AOW would be your next step in the traditional process and some agencies teach deco diving in AOW. Or, you can move into DIR training with GUE, UTD or ISE. After AOW you can do advanced nitrox/deco procedures or triox training.

When diving air, most computers or tables will have you stop at 10 feet then 20 feet. Some will give you a deep stop at about 50% of your max depth. It's important to know that your ascent rate is part of your deco on any dive. Don't rush it. Ascend at 30 feet per minute or whatever rate your computer gives you. You'll begin to off gas at about 80% of ATA or 75% of depth on deeper dives and at about 50% of depth on recreational dives. There is no reason to panic if you find yourself in the same situation again. Just relax and ascend slowly. Make all the stops that your computer tells you to make. Stay at that depth until you are cleared to move up the water column. While that sounds easy and you might be tempted to start doing deco dives, there is a lot more to it than that. Be trained. In technical diving untrained divers are one of the biggest fatality statistics.

Another issue of concern issue will be gas management not just nitrogen in your tissues. Unplanned deco for recreational divers without skill and training can end up moving into an out of air situation and double the trouble.

I'm sorry that your training did not include what to do in the event of an accidental deco obligation. I get angry when I read stories like yours and such instances are precisely why OW training needs to go back to a complete course concept.

Thank you. This is what I have been trying to explain. The fact that the PADI OW or AOW classes does not teach about the decompression rules but choose to say, there exists a decompression concept, but PADI OW, AOW and PADI what ever divers do no deco dives so you do not need to learn about that, is not a correct choice for me . When my blood is being foamed up with nitrogen bubbles and when there is a concept of decompression is there to clean the blood up from nitrogen, not teaching about that is a big negligence. This is to me also about money. They limit the contet of the class so that they force some portion of the people like me who want to learn about the dec theory to take another class and paying extra money for that. Greedy people exist is everywhere.

Do not exceed the no deco limits! Oh ok. I will try not to. But what if I exceed? No answers. During the classes, keeping to say watch your computer and stay in the no deco limits is to me an elusive answer. I need a real answer for that

I will be looking for a class that teaches about the decompression concept.

 

[impulse]

I'm always skeptical of anyone claiming to have over 10,000 dives. If you did any average of three dives a day, that's 3333 days of diving. Or nine years of diving, doing three dives *every day of the year*.

The fact that the instructor put you in a situation where you were well beyond your competence zone makes me question their competence as well.

He has been diving since around 1986. So that makes 25 years of diving. 25 years has 9125days. If he does 2 dives every other day, that makes around 9000 dives. Sponge fisherman days, his safety diver services to the famous free divers, all those training he gives to the new divers and to the militay divers etc..this calculation could be enough that he has at least 9000 dives. Ok lets say not over 10.000, he has 5000. This is half of that. Still too much experience. He was a frogman at the military etc... I will not argue about his experience, because he is really a good man and not a liar, and when underwater really alerted like a shark, it's an honour to me diving with him, and I think I am really lucky being the student of such a great instructer. I do not think that he needs lying me about his count of dives. Would you think about your ego when you are talking with the kids? No.

Maybe he put me in that situation because he was already aware that the risk factor was really low. It's my own low experience that put me in the panic. That's how I think. I will talk about that with him in detail but he is abroad. Pıfff...

 

[rjack321]

Do not exceed the no deco limits! Oh ok. I will try not to. But what if I exceed? No answers. During the classes, keeping to say watch your computer and stay in the no deco limits is to me an elusive answer. I need a real answer for that

Why is this so difficult for you?

I have roughly 800 dives and have never gone into deco "accidentally". Like others said, if you do enter deco per your computer for a few minutes its likely to tell you you need to stop at 10ft for 1-3mins. The reality is that the obligation will go away as you ascend slowly anyway. By the time you reach 10ft you will be back into a no deco dive. Do your safety stop, maybe extend it a little, then exit to a longer than usual surface interval.

 

[rjack321]

He has been diving since around 1986. So that makes 25 years of diving. 25 years has 9125days. If he does 2 dives every other day, that makes around 9000 dives. Sponge fisherman days, his safety diver services to the famous free divers, all those training he gives to the new divers and to the militay divers etc..this calculation could be enough that he has at least 9000 dives. Ok lets say not over 10.000, he has 5000. This is half of that. Still too much experience. He was a frogman at the military etc... I will not argue about his experience, because he is really a good man and not a liar, and when underwater really alerted like a shark . I do not think that he needs lying me about his count of dives. Would you think about your ego when you are talking with the kids? No.

Maybe he put me in that situation because he was already aware that the risk factor was really low. It's my own low experience that put me in the panic. That's how I think. I will talk about that with him in detail but he is abroad. Pıfff...

I wouldn't dive with him recreationally or otherwise, his attitude towards your experience is disrespectful, insensitive, and completely out of touch. As a proper buddy he sucks.

 

[impulse]

Why is this so difficult for you?

I have roughly 800 dives and have never gone into deco "accidentally". Like others said, if you do enter deco per your computer for a few minutes its likely to tell you you need to stop at 10ft for 1-3mins. The reality is that the obligation will go away as you ascend slowly anyway. By the time you reach 10ft you will be back into a no deco dive. Do your safety stop, maybe extend it a little, then exit to a longer than usual surface interval.

It is not difficult. I just want to understand the real rules. For instance, in the event of a computer mulfunction you may need the underlying understandings. I just do not understand if it's that difficult to properly teach the calculations during the classes. Why it is not needed? Ok questions does not make sense anymore. A class will make sense.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

It is not difficult. I just want to understand the real rules. For instance, in the event of a computer mulfunction you may need the underlying understandings. I just do not understand if it's that difficult to properly teach the calculations during the classes. Why it is not needed? Ok questions does not make sense anymore. A class will make sense.

What does the instruction manual for your dive computer say?
The instruction manual should describe what is displayed when NDLs are exceeded and how a diver should proceed.
The instruction manual should also have some recommendations regarding what to do if the computer malfunctions or dies in the middle of a dive.

 

[impulse]

I wouldn't dive with him recreationally or otherwise, his attitude towards your experience is disrespectful, insensitive, and completely out of touch. As a proper buddy he sucks.

Everyone can choose the people they will be diving with. But it's true that he sometimes is disrespectful.

When he is training the instructor candidates, he gives his nearly empty tank to the candidate and take the candidates scuba equipment. He does this under shallow water. Come on we are not in the military or something. He sometimes provides deco tanks on the boat with regulators going deep down into the sea. Once a diver used that. I never needed to. He has a different kind of approach.

 

[boulderjohn]

Thank you. This is what I have been trying to explain. The fact that the PADI OW or AOW classes does not teach about the decompression rules but choose to say, there exists a decompression concept, but PADI OW, AOW and PADI what ever divers do no deco dives so you do not need to learn about that, is not a correct choice for me .

PADI OW does teach no deco diving, and you should have been to take additional training if you want to do that. Since 95% of the population, at least, does not want to do that, the instruction is saved for those that do.

As I said earlier, the PADI course you took did teach you how to deal with emergency decompression using the Recreational Dive Planner you were issued. It was on Knowledge Review #5, which you signed saying that you understood everything on it. It is also printed on the RDP you were given so that you could carry it with you in case you forgot. It was also on your final exam, which you signed saying that any questions you missed were explained to you by your instructor.

Like many people, you decided not to use your RDP but elected to use a computer instead. This meant the PADI instruction on the RDP was no longer in operation. You had gone with a new system and a new system's rules.

When you did, you also elected not to read the computer manual's instructions on how it deals with decompression, so you didn't learn the rules.

When you dived, you elected not to look at your computer until you were into deco.

So, go ahead and blame PADI because you forgot the instruction you received and elected not to read the instructions on your computer. Since you could not possibly be to blame for anything here, it has to be them, right?

I will be looking for a class that teaches about the decompression concept.

Which one? There are many theories about decompression diving. There are many different sets of rules and processes. No one class teaches them all.

One of them is the one that you have written down in your computer manual.

 

[AndyNZ]

When my blood is being foamed up with nitrogen bubbles and when there is a concept of decompression is there to clean the blood up from nitrogen, not teaching about that is a big negligence.

Negligence is a strong word. If you chose to extend your diving beyond the limits of the training you have..... there's no negligence on PADI's behalf.

Do not exceed the no deco limits! Oh ok. I will try not to. But what if I exceed? No answers.

There are answers. But the problem I have, is that if you are trying to not exceed your no-deco limits and you still do..... you simply don't have the situational awareness required to start the training which would give you the answers. WALK then RUN.

You need to know at all times how much gas you have, what your depth is, how long the gas will be consumed at the depth you are diving at, how long you have until your NDL is reached.... and where your buddy is, and the same variables for them.

During the classes, keeping to say watch your computer and stay in the no deco limits is to me an elusive answer. I need a real answer for that

Then you have picked a bad class. When I teach PADI AOW courses, we spend a lot of time talking about decompression models - particularly the composition of the tissue models, and how you can relate those to depths with in a dive plan. It's not intended to train people to conduct decompresison dives - but instead to make sure they understand the concept of controlling compartments, therefore as you near your no-deco limit you can make a choice about whether it's worth ascending to a shallower depth to change the compartment that is controlling your dive and give you more dive time.

If you haven't covered things like that in your AOW course theory, you're being sold a duff course.

I will be looking for a class that teaches about the decompression concept.

That is a much better idea than trawling the internet expecting to give you answers.