Question about DCS

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Without opening a can of worms, there is actually fairly little real evidence that one's hydration status is a major player in determining risk of DCS. (I had read this elsewhere, and heard it reiterated by Dr. Neal Pollock in one of the talks at DEMA this year.) Divers who contract significant DCS often show signs of volume depletion, but it is likely more due to the pathophysiology of the problem, with fluid lost into damaged tissue, than it is to have been a preexisting situation.

I agree with this, and a doctor from DAN recently confirmed my suspicions. When I was working actively as a commercial diver, I remember most of the fluid intake my comrades would drink would be alcohol (#1) followed by soda and coffee. None of these good for hydrating you.

Today, I have a dive buddy who almost literally ONLY drinks Alcohol. I do see him drink a diet coke or a cup of coffee once or twice a week. In my not so scientific research, if hydration was really that significant, this buddy would be bent more often than not.
 
So within 10mins of surfacing the diver is doubled over from acute pain in his abdomen. To me this reads as a typical description of a pneumothorax. The diver is exhibiting the tell-tale "guarding" while attempting to describe what he's feeling while hunched over. Is the pain truly in his abdomen or lower chest? Given the time frame <10min I'm leaning towards pneumothorax. Then the diver describes the pain spreading to other areas. Creeping "pain" is not associated with POIS or AGE. However having witnessed AGEs first hand, this may be a case where the diver attempts to explain the sensation or "ghost" feeling of an AGE as pain. The divers legs went numb a few minutes later; so now I'm really leaning towards AGE if I'm on the boat. However, AGE or DCS it doesn't really matter, he's exhibiting neurological symptoms and needs to be treated.

I can understand your thought process having come through the Navy pipeline myself. TSandM described the symptoms of pneumothorax in a previous post and I agree with her. A pneumo from pulmonary overinflation could be painless or it could present as thoracic pain, but I've seen pneumothoraces myself (though probably not as many as TSandM) and I've never seen one present as abdominal pain either. Of course if it's a tension pneumo you could also see decompensation all the way up to cardiac arrest.

When I went through dive school there was a sharp line drawn between AGE and DCS. We were still going to 165 for gas embolism and 60 for Type II, and the flow charts were completely different. There was no mention of bubble shunting, which from reading the dive profile and symptom description, is pretty high in the differential for the diver in this case. There's no way to tell for sure, of course, but the presentation of the case raises the index of suspicion.

Bubbles can be shunted through a hole or defect in the septum of the heart between the left and right atria, called an atrial septal defect. They can also be shunted through a patent foramen ovale, which is another type of defect in the atrial septum. The foramen ovale is present in utero and helps keep the fetal blood oxygenated. Typically it closes at birth but in some 30% of the population it remains open. In either case, there's basically communication between the left and right atrium. The pressure in the left atrium is only slightly higher than that in the right, and in some cases the pressure in the right atrium can actually exceed that in the left, resulting in what's known as right-to-left shunt.

Post-dive venous gas emboli, or so-called "silent bubbles", have been very well documented in divers. Most of the time these bubbles stay in the venous circulation - they come back to the right atrium, are pumped to the right ventricle and then to the lungs, where they are trapped, gradually reduced in size and eliminated. No harm no foul.

Under the right circumstances, however, bubbles in the right atrium can be shunted to the left atrium, where they're then pumped to the left ventricle, the aorta, and subsequently land in the arterial circulation. They can then theoretically go up the carotid arteries to the brain and cause AGE-like symptoms, into the spinal circulation and cause spinal symptoms, into the vestibular circulation and cause inner ear DCS, or potentially get down into the mesenteric circulation (the tissue that surrounds the intestines) and cause abdominal pain (classic "bends"). It's also been theorized that cutis marmorata (skin marbling) is a result of arterialized bubbles being trapped in the integumantary circulation.

Bubbles can also be shunted directly through the pulmonary circulation, especially during exercise. That's why they tell you not to go PT immediately after a dive or dive series with high decompression stress - you're likely to have venous gas emboli trapped in your lungs. If bubbles get through the pulmonary circulation they return to the left atrium via the pulmonary veins, then get sent to the left ventricle and can cause symptoms similar to those described above.

In either case, the symptoms present relatively rapidly, and so can be mistaken for AGE if you're going strictly by the ten minute rule. Differentiation between decompression sickness caused by shunted bubbles (sometimes called Type III DCS or simply decompression "illness") is, like you said, largely irrelevant because they're both treated the same way nowadays.

Incidentally, if a diver has an extremely high venous bubble load, say from a rapid ascent/omitted decompression, those bubbles could significantly impede the blood flow through the lungs. This results in impaired gas exchange and can lead to pulmonary edema and death. This is pulmonary DCS, or chokes.


Would you mind expanding on this? What is the textbook answer for diagnosing and treating this diver on the civilian side? The diver is exhibiting neurological symptoms of a potentially life threating diving related illness <10min after diving, why wouldn't you press him immediately?
I also dive in a civilian capacity, so I welcome any knowledge that might make me more attentive to contributing causes in others.

Usually, if it looks like a duck, etc, it's a duck. Of course the index of suspicion for DCS in this diver is high, but other medical problems also need to be ruled out. If this diver had a coagulation issue, for example, he could have thrown some microclots which would have caused similar symptoms. There are also cases in the literature of carotid artery dissection being mistaken for gas embolism. A lot depends on the diver's age and underlying medical conditions.

I was sup-ing a SCUBA dive in San Diego harbor once and one of my divers (an older guy but still a Navy diver) came up coughing up pink frothy sputum. My dive school brain was thinking, "POIS". We got him in the boat and zipped him over to the tender (forget which one) but they didn't treat him. They did an x-ray and saw pulmonary edema. Years later after working here for a while, I put two and two together and figured that this guy had likely suffered from some sort of immersion-related pulmonary edema, possibly (speculating here) complicated by age-related subclinical cardiac issues.


This my primary issue with the treatment course of this diver. For us, it is procedure that once a diver suffering a diving related illness is administered O2 they will undergo a recompression treatment. The reason being is that the application of O2 of masks and alleviates symptoms without most effectively treating the underlying issue. Further, accurate diagnosis and tracking of the symptoms can no longer be done. Case and point, the diver was administered O2 for two hours and felt better, predictably the next day the symptoms returned. The medical professionals treating him obviously suspected AGE & DCS enough to administer O2, mask symptoms, and not fully treat him?
Thanks for reading. Looking forward to your guys thoughts on this.

The fact that his symptoms were relieved by O2 definitely points toward some sort of bubble injury. I'm very reluctant to armchair judge a physician in the Bahamas while sitting at my desk in North Carolina because I didn't see the diver myself and there's often more to the story than meets the eye here on Scubaboard. Still, I agree with this statement and I'd be interested to hear the physician's rationale for not treating this diver in a chamber.
 
edit
All three dives made in three days.Mares ICON did not show NDL hit for any dive. Here they are for analysis:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Z-sDf2ppC9dnNLeWQ2WVB1anM/edit?usp=sharing

---------- Post added November 24th, 2013 at 03:33 PM ----------

image.tiff
if you can't see this pic then all three dives are here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1Z...it?usp=sharing
 
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I would like to add my 2 cents. 1)If the symptoms even slightly smell like DCI, a chamber ride is not unreasonable. If you look at risk benefit ratio, the visit to the chamber wins. 2) Dive tables and computers are merely "friendly suggestions" on what our NDL limits should be.If you examine how they were derived, this would be evident. There are many factors which are at play, hydration, cardiac or pulmonary shunting, and who knows maybe even phases of the moon. 3) Abdominal pain and hip girdle pain can be harbingers of type 2 DCS.
Although symptoms DCS maybe delayed or not as dramatic as AGE, they can occur any time.
Divers are humans, not computers. While tables and dive computers are extremely helpful, we all are different. A dive that may cause one diver to fizz up may be an innocuous dive to another.
 
Well aside from the deepish average depths that I mentioned before those profiles don't look too shocking. That said, they almost look like classic bucket profiles and if you look at them from the point of view of the RDP then the tables would put you very close to the NDL's on all of those dives.

On first reading your ascent speeds seem to be in order of what you would expect, and it looks like you were making reasonably good safety stops and long enough surface intervals.

I guess I could recommend a couple of general things based on what I"m seeing.

1) At least one of the agencies is now training to make a stop 1/2 way to the surface for 1 min during the ascent. In the case of deeper dives you might want to make one of those "deep stops" in light of what happened. I don't look at the deep stop as something to help off gassing so much as slow down the total ascent speed. There are ways to tightly control your ascent speed that might be worth looking at.

From the graphs your ascent speed is fairly consistent and I suspect you were using the computer's ascent speed graph as a guide. The 1/2 way stop might make a difference in the case like this where you're making 3 repetitive dives on a day all of which are fairly deep and in which you go straight from depth to the safety stop. If the site makes it possible/interesting, then going to 1/2 depth at about the 20 min mark and turning it into a multi-level dive might help too.

2) once at your 5m stop the safety stops don't need to be cut off at 3 minutes. 3 min is the minimum recommendation but you can extend the 5m stop indefinitely. In light of your incident I would think making 5 minute safety stops instead of 3 might be worth considering.

3) Your computer may have different settings for how conservative it is. It might be worth putting it on a more conservative setting.

4) I'll repeat what I said about suggesting to your buddy to get checked for a PFO. Something along those lines could very well have been the culprit. At the very least, if it's not the case then it will give him peace of mind to know that.

5) Current thinking about reverse profiles is such that the 20ft difference between dives 2 and 3 shouldn't have had an impact. That said, if it's possible then maybe doing those dives in the other order next time is something to consider. It may not help but it won't hurt either.

Other than that, I'm just getting the usual list of things that would come to mind. The ascent might be worth looking at in more detail but no major red flags from my point of view.

R..
 
Agreed that the profile, pressure groups and SI all need to be provided. I'm skeptical of 'ghost' cases of DCS though - in most cases it generally comes down to accidentally exceeding NDL's or ascent rates. On the flip side though it also comes down to the personal health and fitness of the diver as everyone varies in their susceptibility. Dive computers and tables are normally conservative enough, but physical fitness, being overweight, hydration levels, sleep quality, being a smoker or having residual toxins like alcohol present when diving all play a part. Basically anything that affects the diver's circulation. Any of that applicable to your buddy?
 
Agreed that the profile, pressure groups and SI all need to be provided. I'm skeptical of 'ghost' cases of DCS though - in most cases it generally comes down to accidentally exceeding NDL's or ascent rates. On the flip side though it also comes down to the personal health and fitness of the diver as everyone varies in their susceptibility. Dive computers and tables are normally conservative enough, but physical fitness, being overweight, hydration levels, sleep quality, being a smoker or having residual toxins like alcohol present when diving all play a part. Basically anything that affects the diver's circulation. Any of that applicable to your buddy?


All of those contribute to what you call 'ghost' cases. There are probably other factors we haven't discovered yet; 'ghost' cases of DCS have been around since we discovered why we were getting DCS. Back in the days of air only deco using the Navy dive tables, we were told over and over that those tables were based on people in very good physical condition and to never push them to the edge. Those that did push usually got hit. I dove those table and still do sometimes without ever getting a hit but I never pushed them always take the next time or depth rather than push a close but lesser time/depth. I always hang a little longer at each stop. Even SS I add a couple of minutes to, especially if I'm somewhere where there is something to see. Why be in a hurry to surface?
 
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Agreed that the profile, pressure groups and SI all need to be provided. I'm skeptical of 'ghost' cases of DCS though - in most cases it generally comes down to accidentally exceeding NDL's or ascent rates.

On the graphs he posted you can read the profiles and ascent speed reasonably well and the SI times are listed. The groups are not listed but he said they didn't exceed what the computer said were the NDL's.

Maybe you missed seeing the link. here it is again: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1Z-sDf2ppC9dnNLeWQ2WVB1anM/edit

R..
 
Thank you all for your feedback.My buddy is symptom free now.I don't know that if he had a PFO, he would get it fixed. Either way he is more likely to get DCS then he was before, so my guess is I lost a dive buddy.:depressed: Does anyone know someone who has had a PFO "fixed".
 

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