Qualifications of a DM

[ginti]

Philippines most of the time and Thailand and Indonesia. I used to live in Brunei where I did a lot of BSAC courses but that was over 30 years ago and we used to dive in Malaysia back then as well but I refer to dives in the last 2 decades.

Well, if I got it correctly, there seems to be a bit of variation between your and @Centrals' experiences, maybe the diving environment over there is not that homogenous...

....

Actually, in my opinion, points {A} and {B} are perfectly satisfied by industry's standards. Indeed, a bit of supervision is very different from babysitting. The point {C} is the crucial one. Indeed, as far as I know, DMs hold legal responsibilities in some countries, which is why I personally believe that they should be able to deal with the few incompetent people they meet.

However, to be honest, maybe I didn't express well myself. I have some experiences with bad DMs, but very very few. Overall, I tend to agree with @ofg-1, despite proudly holding cards from GUE. When I wrote the post Qualifications of a DM I was actually thinking that most of the time DMs satisfy those criteria. Perhaps except for the GUE rec-pass, but as I said there are other ways to determine the minimum acceptable level of skills, and I am nowhere close to the position of judging other divers' abilities: I have insufficient experience and insufficient knowledge to do that.

In general, my view is that the industry relies too much on instructors, leaving them a too wide margin of decisions. I especially refer to the minimum requirement to get the card. Luckily, I almost always met DM who started their training with more experience than the minimum required because, luckily enough, people have on average good faith and don't let too inexperienced divers start the course. But sometimes it happens, and perhaps here there is a bit of margin to improve the current situation.

2 cents from a guy who doesn't feel ready to be a DM

@ofg-1, I guess that with DIR people you also mean GUE divers... well, I hate the DIR word, but as you want. The thing that makes me sad is that you met so many "DIR" people that critical towards others. We are not all like that, really. Especially for rec-diving.

EDIT: I guess this post explain a little bit better also for @markmud and @SlugMug

 

[Edward3c]

Thanks. What is your experience with dive guides/instructors/etc in these places?

Koh Tao, with the exception of my first trip I’ve used Master Divers. Normally pay for a private guide, that way I do the dives I want. I don’t care whether they give me a guide, a Divemaster or instructor, their job is to be my buddy and protect me from Trigger Fish. On the last trip I organised a Buoyancy & Trip Workshop, I wanted to practice before running one in the U.K.

Ko Lipe, used two operators both European staffed. Had the opportunity to do one of the wrecks with accelerated deco on the last trip. Amusing seeing the Tech students stare as I’m only an Advanced Diver (BSAC).

Bali, we got an instructor as a guide, he kept hiding his contents gauge at the end of each dive. Again they were only there to show us round.

 

[TMHeimer]

I believe yours isn't just an impression.

In theory, situation b) you described should not exist. However:
{A} new divers, even when competent, require a bit of supervision;
{B} anyway, the way you described the situation a), the DM should be competent and knowledgable;
{C} unfortunately, many divers are NOT competent (!)

Because many not competent divers exist, what should local diving businesses do about them? There are two options:
(1) having overqualified DM, who can manage incompetent people;
(2) doing business as usual, with DMs able to guide but unprepared to manage bad behaviours.

Like it or not, option (2) will lead to bad marketing for businesses because incompetent divers would be unsatisfied and would spread bad words.

Excellent post. It's too bad apparently so many divers (new & not so new) are incompetent and create this situation.
Actually regarding "A"-- Theoretically even a brand new diver should be trained to the point of not needing even a bit of supervision. I THINK I was. But, my also new buddy and I took it slow and easy with shallow shore dives starting out.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think we need to remember that there is a broad spectrum of diver competence. Most likely it is a bell curve where at one end is properly trained/skilled and at the other is "is this person going to die in their next dive?". Most are in the middle with varying degrees of skill. Undertrained overall, but they likely won't need intervention unless something really bad happens where they can't rely on their forgotten training (if they even got such training, as I didn't in my open water course: example, no gas sharing ascent in both confined and open water, one of many things left out). I don't believe I was a fatality waiting to happen right after I was certified, but it would be a bad day for me if an OOG diver came up and ripped my primary out of my mouth.

 

[Centrals]

Koh Tao, with the exception of my first trip I’ve used Master Divers. Normally pay for a private guide, that way I do the dives I want. I don’t care whether they give me a guide, a Divemaster or instructor, their job is to be my buddy and protect me from Trigger Fish. On the last trip I organised a Buoyancy & Trip Workshop, I wanted to practice before running one in the U.K.

Can't go wrong with Master Divers.
Small group diving.

 

[SlugLife]

Excellent post. It's too bad apparently so many divers (new & not so new) are incompetent and create this situation.
Actually regarding "A"-- Theoretically even a brand new diver should be trained to the point of not needing even a bit of supervision. I THINK I was. But, my also new buddy and I took it slow and easy with shallow shore dives starting out.

Precisely. As I mentioned in another post recently, competence (or incompetence) is relative to the dive.

If you dive within your means, you can be a competent diver on your very first dive after an OW class. My first several dives were at about 30ft, taking care to go no deeper. I'll do the exact same thing, when dealing with an unfamiliar equipment configuration. For example, when I switched to a backplate and used set of regulators that were just serviced, I stuck to a 30ft dive. Fairly soon, I'll be starting sidemount, and while I think I have nothing to worry about (in fact, even less to worry about, due to redundancy), I'll also start shallow until I'm comfortable and confident with my equipment and skills.

The majority of my dives have been solo dives, and I've never had an issue, and always stayed well within the bounds of what I thought I could handle in an emergency solo. Though I would criticize my own previous "competence" in one specific way - not having a redundant air supply. I've of course since fixed that.

The fact that you stayed within your means and skillset, by starting with shallow dives, is (IMO) a sign of competence.

 

[Mystic Gringo]

I know this topic is a little old, but I just read through the two original posts and all of this one and thought I'd share my opinion. I normally just lurk here, so excuse the low number of posts/comments.

It seems clear from this that there are two main reasons for a DM... as a guide, and as an instruction or dive assistant. I think at least one of the major organizations (PADI, SSI, NAUI... etc) should break these two up, and hopefully the rest would follow. Most of my usage for a DM is a guide... but there are times where I'd like to dive with a buddy who has much more experience and is more backup than just showing me the hiding spots for cool things. That's what I think should be called a Dive Master... and a Dive Guide is just like any other tour guide... makes the plan for where we all dive, what we will see, and makes sure the tour stays together to get back in time for lunch. Ideally they have a Rescue class under their belts because stuff happens.

A Dive Master should carry more responsibility. I definitely understand that I am responsible for myself, and won't necessarily rely on a DM to get me home safe... but certain circumstances may call for an added layer. I normally dive in tropical salt water... but I am planning on going to a local fresh water quarry for some dives. I've never dove fresh water, and never in a quarry... I certainly understand theoretical differences, but it would help to have someone who has experience in both to assist until I was personally comfortable enough to go with just my buddy. This DM is not someone who has 69 dives and can't figure out how weight themselves properly. I am certainly wiling to pay more for someone who carries the DM responsibility.

Another use might be someone who hasn't dove in a year (or what ever time frame is deemed appropriate), the "check out dive" should require them to pay for a DM who watches them more closely to gauge capability.

Having a Dive Guide would help with instruction also. In a small OW class (say 3 for this example) after the skills are complete, the Dive Guide can lead the dive, and let the instructor follow up. This way the instructor can actually watch the students during regular recreational diving and correct any issues seen but not necessary covered in a skills session. At a certain number of students you add DM's and Instructors as necessary.

I also agree with a continuing education and re-certification process for a Dive Master... and I think it should be required that it's not with your original instructor. Yes, this will cost more but the higher fees paid for a DM will offset that. It doesn't have to be expensive, if you're a working DM at a shop, it might just be the head instructor going on a couple dives you're working and signing off. This also protects from people getting their DM certs just because it's there. In many states in the US they make contractors take continuing education classes and renew licenses, if DM's and Instructors are taking on life safety responsibilities, they should most certainly be held to a standard at least as high as the guy installing windows in your house.

 

[boulderjohn]

Having a Dive Guide would help with instruction also. In a small OW class (say 3 for this example) after the skills are complete, the Dive Guide can lead the dive, and let the instructor follow up. This way the instructor can actually watch the students during regular recreational diving and correct any issues seen but not necessary covered in a skills session. At a certain number of students you add DM's and Instructors as necessary.

That's one of the reason DM training includes both leading dives and assisting in class instruction. What you describe is already allowed and is a regular part of instruction in many places.

 

[Mystic Gringo]

That's one of the reason DM training includes both leading dives and assisting in class instruction. What you describe is already allowed and is a regular part of instruction in many places.

Cool. I am obviously not a DM, and don’t have your experience. I’ve only ever seen instructors lead and DM’s act like cleanup crew behind.

 

[NothingClever]

Personally, I eschew dive guides when I splash. I don't need or want them to show me the cool stuff as I like to explore on my own.

Totally concur. I expect a quality dive brief from the DM and then be allowed to get on with my dive.