Pushing Limits

[joens]

i have seen rec divers have a computer fail get an unused one and then take that one into deco . also going into deco at 3-4 thousand feet altitude with the computer set at sea level.also a lot of rec divers figure if they have a problem all they have to do is drop weight belt inflate BCand shoot to the surface . that is when they die .they turn a simple problem into a major one .
If they were trained to deal with ANY problem that comes up underwater there would be a lot fewer incidents.when we are in deco we cant surface we have to deal with anything that comes up.
joens

 

[leadweight]

Joens,

I have seen accidents happen, and even more times seen recreational divers do risky or stupid things because they do not know better. However, I do not consider most recreational divers or the average advanced recreational diver to be the incompetent threat that some others around here think they are. Yes, a minority are unsafe, but nowhere near most.

Furthermore, I have enough libertarian genes to feel that anyone who wants to cave dive is welcome to train and go for it. There are, however, moral implications to participating in dangerous activities which were explored in the book discussed above. Some of this deals with whether it is right for a person with family obligations to risk their life for sport. Other aspects involve how financial considerations of promoters can lead to tragedy.

I recognize that Everest is more dangerous than Cave diving, although it may not be much more dangerous than deep wreck diving. The lessons in "Into Thin Air" apply, nevertheless. If anything, the incidents described in "The Last Dive" parallel what hapened on Everest, although Bernie C. does not have the moral insight that Krackower has.

 

[chickdiver]

leadweight once bubbled...
Ah yes, another diver who has reached that higher level than the rest of us dangerous creatures out there...

Nice of you to imply that you have any idea what my training might/might not be or, for that matter, what types of diving I do or do not do. As for my thinking that most AOW divers are dangerous, let me tell you a little story: Last year I was in Cozumel, I observed the following behavior 3 days in a row: A diver violated his computer, did not know that the computer was telling him, was unhappy that it would no longer function, and figured out he could remove and replace the "user replaceable" battery to reset the computer. Was that dangerous? In my opinion yes. This is typical of the behavior I have seen all over the world.

FWIW, I applaud the fact that you know what your limits are and aren't afraid to stand up for them, but don't criticize the rest of us for doing (in essence) the same thing.

 

[leadweight]

The fact that you saw one AOW diver doing something stupid does not make most AOW divers a threat. It makes no difference to me what kind of diving you do. It does not take cave/technical diver, DM or instructor training to be a safe diver, or to spot an unsafe diver. For that matter, I saw an OW instructor do amazingly ignorant things while on vacaion. But, that is a small minority.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It is hopeless isn't it?

 

[thethumper]

leadweight once bubbled...
The fact that you saw one AOW diver doing something stupid does not make most AOW divers a threat. It makes no difference to me what kind of diving you do. It does not take cave/technical diver, DM or instructor training to be a safe diver, or to spot an unsafe diver. For that matter, I saw an OW instructor do amazingly ignorant things while on vacaion. But, that is a small minority.

You very obviously don't live in Fl. In the picture in my profile you can see Alexander spring in the background. We went here to set up & check some new gear. There were 4 OW classes. One of the instructors tried to wriggle feet 1st into 1 of the rifts & got stuck. My buddy & I sat & watched him as his eyes very nealry bugged out of his head. He finally worked his way out of it after silting out the Entire basin.

This is what I'm talking about. There are instructors out here that have no business diving, much less holding another's life in their hands by not giving them the proper (quality) training. I am not an instructor because I don't want that responsibility nor do I feel I would make a good teacher.

Live & dive down here for several years as does Sherpa & myself, you will see all too clearly.

 

[leadweight]

I don't live in Florida, but, sigh, I wish I did. So, you saw a lumphead instructor. Actually, the incident involving an instructor that I alluded to above was similar. I admit there are unsafe divers and instructors out there, everyone agrees with that. The difference is that seeing a few idiots does not prove that most recreational divers are bad. I see unsafe divers now and again, but a large majority are safe. (Some of them are doing things that irk certain Nazi DM's but that is another story.)

 

[eramosakarst]

i do not feel that I am being negligent in my responsibility to her.On the contrary-I am ever so aware of the hazards of ALL types of diving due to my training as well-I feel I am more competent to deal with adversity underwater.I would not get into extreme scenarios regarding caves because of her but I feel calm in enjoying my passion.How many parents consume alcohol-especially this time of year then drive?thousands are killed every year from alcohol but it is socially acceptible!?If I was a trucker my chance of collision increases due to frequency-do I stop because i have children?Thousands do it but they take the precautions necessary to do it as safely as their training and experience allows.Driving cars will get you before just about anything do we stop because we have children?I feel my daughter benefits from my pursuit in the fact that she has a keen appreciation for nature-conservation-dedication-and she is learning to live her life not watch it go bye.With proper motivation and training I do not feel I am letting her down-right now I have had a long hiatus from diving.I have the tools and have HAD the training but would I venture in a cave right now?Hell no as my skills are not sharp-I am beginning to take courses I have once taken in order to regain my competence-too bad we cant keep overconfident openwater divers from doing the same!!!!!!! heres a little ditty=I was diving the forest city{wreck} and an openwater diver passed by with huge saucer like eyes followed by a fantail of bubbles-i assisted this now imobile{might as well have been dead=buddy???} but I had to swim him up-due to my tank arrangement I soon began to see a dark ring in my vision-fortunately I sorted it out.MORAL=I was negligent to my daughter in retospect by allowing someone who had poor skills/training/motivation to share their dive with me.Most o/w divers I have encountered dive very little and do not heed training lilitations-most trained cave divers I have met DO in a methodical way. Sorry this was so looong MERRY XMAS EVERYONE! Dive SAFE!!!!!

 

[eramosakarst]

My daughter loves caving{dry that is} she relishes our muddy crawls together=better than the boob tube parent?

 

[Divesherpa]

Arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
The point is that the preparation that goes into cave diving by a properly trained cave diver is far more intense than the planning for a basic OW dive. The procedures that are followed in a cave are very straight forward and very safe. I believe that only one person has died following these rules (aside from heart attacks, etc...)
Is being in Peacock safer than being on a 250 fsw wreck in 35 degree (f) water? Yes
Is being in Ginnie safer than being under a few feet of ice? yes

Is being in Little River (hopefully soon) safer than being on a 90 foot dive in Bonaire? yes

Why?

Redundancy and definitive procedures insure safety as long as they are followed to a T (no pun intended)

Sorry leadweight, I have to disagree with you.
That's OK though
You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine

The only difference is that you speak of something that you don't appear to know very much about. If you did, you would know that trained cave divers have a very high rate of survival compared to other forms of diving.

Cave diving is terribly dangerous (if the diver is not trained properly to be in the environment), hence the high mortality rate among people who enter and are not trained.

Cheers and safe diving
Sherpa