Pushing Limits

[Divesherpa]

Leadweight,
I have to ask if you spend much time in caves. Some of your posts indicate that you really don't know that much about cave diving.
I may be completely off base, but your statements tend to give that impression.

I don't tell a baker how to make bread or try to determine if bread baking is safer than apple picking.

I'm not a baker or an apple picker.

Cheers and safe diving,
Sherpa

 

[leadweight]

I have not told anyone how to cave dive. However, the baker apple picker analogy is a simplistic view of life. People in all sorts of trades are told every day how to do their jobs by managers who couldn't do the actual tasks efficiently themselves.

I would agree that Everest is even more dangerous than cave diving. For every 5 persons that have made it to the summit of Everest 1 died along the way somewhere. That does not change the fact that over 500 persons have died in the Florida caves.

My view that the moral message in "Into Thin Air" is applicable to cave diving, and most technical diving, remains steadfast. The hazzards may be different and not as severe, but they are there and people have died. There is no doubt that the author intended his message to apply beyond Everest. Read the book. It is a great read even if you don't agree with it.

Three people have made arrogant statements about the safety of cave diving. To say a cave is safer than a reef dive at 40 feet is so wrong that I don't have to explain why it is wrong. The word recreational does not apply to any cave diving. By definition the overhead enviornment is not recreational diving.

I must give Thumper credit for agreeing that overconfidence kills, but I could do without the fancy type fonts, colors and caps.

 

[MikeFerrara]

leadweight once bubbled...


Mike, if you really believe what you just wrote, you are headed for trouble.

Some of you would be cave/deep trimix divers ought to read "Into Thin Air" It is about climbing Mt. Everest, but it does not take a lot of smarts to see that what the author is saying about risking your life to push the limits applies equally to technical diving.

I didn't say I am safer in a cave than I would be on a 40 ft reef. I said I am safer than most other divers are on a 40 ft reef. I am better prepared for my environment with respect to training, experience, equipment and teammates than most rec divers are for a 40 ft reef. In other words I am further within my limits than they are. I stand by what I said and I don't cave dive to intentionally risk my life. In fact my fun dives are almost exclusively in caves. After the things I have see in the last couple of years I no longer wish to dive where the recreational dive industry conducts activities. No resorts or public boats or the like for me. The reason is that I don't think they are environmentally freindly or safe.

Buoyancy control problems and rapid ascents account for a large percentage of injuries (reference the DAN incedent report) I don't have booyancy control problems and niether do the folks I dive with. Recreational cave diving by those properly trained and equiped has an excelant safety record. Those 500 dead ones you mentioned were mostly OW divers who didn't have the training or the equipment. They're the same Darwin award candidates who get hurt on a reef or at the quarry. I have seen many ambulance runs at quarries. These accidents didn't happen on very ambitious dives but the divers were not prepared and were hurt.

 

[Spectre]

Thread Split off from Dive Rite Fins in the Fins forum

 

[leadweight]

Most other divers means more than half, at a minimum. So you think that you are safer in a cave than more than half of the divers on a 40 foot reef dive. That implies that more than half the recreational divers cannot handle a cakewalk as well as you can handle a cave. Arrogance defined.

 

[chickdiver]

Leadweight-

I have to disagree with your comment about arrogance. I am so appalled at the lack of skill and mastery of basic diving knowledge that I refuse to get on recreational boats. i refuse to dive anywhere near the majority of recreational divers. Personally, I feel that the most dangerous creature out there is the "average" advanced OW diver. That is not to say that all cave/tech divers are good at diving, but when I do give them a higher starting point in the old "personal opinion poll".

 

[MikeFerrara]

leadweight once bubbled...
Most other divers means more than half, at a minimum. So you think that you are safer in a cave than more than half of the divers on a 40 foot reef dive. That implies that more than half the recreational divers cannot handle a cakewalk as well as you can handle a cave. Arrogance defined.

More than half? Yes I would say way more. Arrogance? No! FRUSTRATION! Yes, thats what it is frustration. I see it day in and day out. I don't have words strong enough to describe my real opinion of the skill level in recreational diving.

 

[thethumper]

leadweight once bubbled...
Most other divers means more than half, at a minimum. So you think that you are safer in a cave than more than half of the divers on a 40 foot reef dive. That implies that more than half the recreational divers cannot handle a cakewalk as well as you can handle a cave. Arrogance defined.

"Most other divers" are pushed through an O/W class like pigs to the market. This has been flogged to death, the issue over O/W divers not getting the proper training. I am by no means a scuba god that is fearless & knows all.

If you were to do a bit more research you would find the vast majority of those who have died in caves were; untrained for caving, the deaths predated the training structures we have now, or the death may have very well happened even if they were in shallow water. Ever hear of shallow water black-outs. This is most prevelant @ depths of 30'.

You wear a seatbelt when you drive? Me too. But when I'm drag racing, I have a 5 point harness, helmet and roll cage. Having the right equiptment is 1/2 the battle. The other 1/2 is training. When I raced motorcycles, I went to a school to get certified to do so.

What I'm saying is, if you don't feel comfortable in your surroundings, you shouldn't be there to begin with.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Carefully read the DAN report. Aside from middle age ailments like heart attacks do you see what causes most diver injuries? Plain and simple it is poor basic skills. I am not pushing limits they are.

How many recreational divers have you seen run their computer into deco. Maybe a couple days in a row with 3-5 dives a day. Lots do it these days. I think they will even get bent before I do. I bet I surface with less of an inert gas load than they do. I wouldn't even consider doing some of the profiles some of these DM's lead divers on every day. Well at least not without some good gas and alot more of it than what they carry at that.

 

[leadweight]

chickdiver once bubbled...
Leadweight-

I have to disagree with your comment about arrogance. I am so appalled at the lack of skill and mastery of basic diving knowledge that I refuse to get on recreational boats. i refuse to dive anywhere near the majority of recreational divers. Personally, I feel that the most dangerous creature out there is the "average" advanced OW diver. That is not to say that all cave/tech divers are good at diving, but when I do give them a higher starting point in the old "personal opinion poll".

Ah yes, another diver who has reached that higher level than the rest of us dangerous creatures out there...Perhaps the tech/cave divers are better because the bad ones have been eliminated by the Darwin effect.

I have been in a cave a couple of times and can see the attraction of clear-as-air water, decorations and the ability to float over difficult terrain. Personally, I prefer to see fish and other marine life. My choice is that the risk to reward ratio makes cave diving unattractive to me. It is OK with me that your choice is different. I don't think that all cave divers are suicidal maniacs, but there may be a few.

It is true that recreational divers manage to have accidents, sometimes fatal, in less than the most difficult conditions. However, those of you who feel that "most" or the "average" diver is so awful are full of baloney and have a mighty big chip on your shoulder.