Pushing Limits

[Divesherpa]

Duncan Price once bubbled...


No disrespeact, but it seems an example of someone repeating what their instructor told them without questioning its veracity.
Mind how you go.

Duncan

No disrespect taken. No one ever said the number but me, especially not an instructor. I pulled it out of my arse. My basic point was that most cave diving is merely recreational. You are an exception to most rules.
Most people that I know would have died using a rebreather made from tampons, floor mats, pvc pipe, and a horse-collar. Due to this fact, I say that most people shouldn't dive a rebreather made out of said ingredients. You, however, are the exception. You are very educated and (seemingly) very intelligent.
Your methods are slightly less than what I would consider safe FOR ME! I don't have a doctorate in Chemistry and prefer using a wing for buoyancy. I don't have the technical experience to build a rebreather out of household items (yet).
We had a dive planned during your last visit, but alas, it did not work out.
You are an exception, not the rule.


Cheers

 

[wes]

I like a good argument, so I'll add my 2 cents;

What you are saying; that you are safer in a cave then most OW divers in OW...that is called complacency.

Sadly, the numbers don't lie. Theres a significant difference between the number of OW dives safely made each day, compared to the number of caves dives.

I don't doubt that you are safer in a cave then most of those (500) who went in and never came out. But your fooling yourself if you say you're safer then OW diver. Going back to leadweight's "Into Thin Air" argument...like on Everest in a cave there is little hope of rescue, and little margin for mistakes (which good divers will make from time to time).

I didn't read all of the posts on this thread...but I'd be curious to hear from all those examples of OW diver stupidity; how many resulted in a chamber ride, or even first aid being administered. What is the ratio of seeing OW divers doing stupid things (and getting away with it) to actually witnessing a dive accident.

You can have all the training and redendancy you want. But to assume your immuned to the risk because of your fantastic diving ability...that's textbook complacency. No I am not an experienced cave diver (I recently took my Cave Intro which I enjoyed very much) so you can insert your quote about my lack of understanding here ->"". But for your own sake (and the cave's) please consider carefully what you are saying.

Sorry about beating a dead horse.

Bill.

 

[MikeFerrara]

wes once bubbled...
I like a good argument, so I'll add my 2 cents;

What you are saying; that you are safer in a cave then most OW divers in OW...that is called complacency.

Sadly, the numbers don't lie. Theres a significant difference between the number of OW dives safely made each day, compared to the number of caves dives.

What we are saying is that OW divers are complacent and we are not. You are right numbers don't lie I have witnessed a bunch of ambulance runs amung OW divers not to mention the near misses. A local quarry had EMS there nine times in one year. Per the DAN report buoyancy control problems were reported in a large percentage (like 40%) of the dives that result in injury. Every see a cave diver with poor buoyancy control?

Plain and simple outside of medical problems poor skills are what cause accidents. OW is where you will find poor skills to be more common. If you like to argue bring it on. We can compare stories.

 

[Divesherpa]

I missed your point, Wes.

Could you point me to where I said I was safer in a cave than any OW divers? I said that cave diving is the safest diving that I have ever done. You are correct in the fact that complacency kills. You don't know me from Adam but you feel that I am complacent.
You are out of line.
Congratulations on intro. Do you do a lot of cave diving in Canada?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Do some want to believe cave diving is not "safe".
I know somw want to believe that OW diving is "safe".

I think cavedivers understand and manage risk better than MANY OW divers who ignore risk and rely on the DM and luck to do it for them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Divesherpa,
With as much cave diving as you do don't you think you should do something about that complacency problem of yours?

 

[Divesherpa]

Hey Mike,

I just returned from two days of salt and spirits off the Florida coast. We hit one wreck that was wrecked and hit one pile of **** that was jumbled garbage and concrete. (That's what we get for dropping on blips on the screen) The drift was nice as we covered about 4 miles of OW during the deco on Wednesday. Yesterday wasn't so bad either.

Nothing kills cave diving complacency like a couple of days lookin' for new stuff under the sea.

Deco in salt is not as pleasant to the skin, but is much more exciting to the senses than the caves. I didn't even get to play chess.

Oh well, maybe I'll get complacent tonight and do something stupid. I may forget to bring my light. I might forget my regulators and be forced to breathe from the tanks by cracking the valves one at a time. Who knows, I may even forget the catheter and piss on my leg. I might skip my deco and lug all of the stage bottles right to the car without any concern of bubble damage. I may go straight to the bar and drink a gallon of Wild Turkey and tell the locals that sleeping with their family is wrong.

Wes was right. I'm entirely too complacent.

Cheers and safe diving

 

[Divesherpa]

When did the stars show up? That's great. Now I don't have to edit myself, the board does it for me.

Cool

 

[wes]

I said I am safer than most other divers are on a 40 ft reef.

My apologies. It wasn't you who said it, tho you seemed strangely offended by my post. It was MikeFerrara. And yes, anyone who believes that (not you), is either just saying that to make a comment about their skills, or complacent. My point was; that diving into an underwater cave, whatever your training or equipment is not safer then diving with less training and less equipment in OW. Which incidently, is less safe then staying home in bed. Since you say you agree with this, then there is no need to reply with sarcasm.

I don't believe that anyone on this board, (myself included) would be able to dive into a cave unless they were absolutely 100% sure they were coming out alive. Of course in reality there is always a risk that we could of course make a mistake, or even things go wrong beyond or control i.e. cave-in. But that is the trick (people who do extreame things like mountain climbing and cave diving) play on ourselves, we always believe that no matter what our training and equipment will get us out alive.

I'm not sure if your next question was sarcastic or not as well, but just in case it wasn't; there is a sump in Tobermory called Leopard Frog. Its rarely dove tho, 40f year round, real tight squeeze, i.e. sidemounts and single file only. I believe its about 1 mile long. The guy who surveyed it said it was like diving in a coffin for 6 hours. And no, I will not be diving it.

-Bill.

 

[leadweight]

I cant believe this thread is still going. Everybody get out of here and put on a few holiday pounds. The lucky get to go diving in their place of choice. I have to wait a week, but will then go for the beautiful waters of Roatan. As for the cave divers, may your HID lights burn bright, stay sharp, and live long.