Punctured wings

[Doppler]

NetDoc once bubbled...

SNIPPY BITS SNIPPED

BTW your response has brought two more questions to mind...
1) Have you ever dove a dual bladder wing? (Be honest)
2) Has anyone shown you how to configure it properly, or did you just assume there was only one way to do it? (If yes, who was it?)

And don’t forget these three standing questions…
3) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of space?
4) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of time?
5) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of money?

I am waiting your humble yet cogent reply.

OK I really have to get back to cleaning the garage, so this'll be fast


Yes I have dove a double bladder... it made it harder to get into small spaces on wrecks and hurt the back of my neck.

Yes several people have shown me different ways to configure it. They all seemed overly complex because I had a spare ****ing inflator in the way. AND in any event, it doesn't offer a solution to a common problem... or even one that's likely. I stand a better chance of winning the lottery... Hummmmmm.

Space. All the models I have seen are bigger than my 55# wing. IF there's a smaller one and it only has one inflator then the space issue is taken care of and I'll withdraw my objection.

Time... well, I'm wasting it now when I should be working on the garage. Other than that, the process of deploying a second bc in an emergency is what... please describe it and I will see how your method compares with my perception of it and I'll try to point out where the time is wasted.

Money. Double wings are more expensive and a cost benefit analysis does npt come out favorably.

did I miss anything.

By the way. I am a practicing Buddhist. I like wishing people enlightenment!

OH, and experience... didn't you ask about that... well, I have a little. Read my earlier posting... I do think my past and varied experiences both in water and buying unnecessarily complicated equipment qualifies me to have an opinion. Could be wrong and maybe I should keep quite. But of course, that's against one of the fundemental precepts of my belief.



Doppler

Not GUE. Not DIR. But Hogathian and beginning to understand.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I understand the concern about air leaking out of an LPI fitting with no hose attached. This depends on the inflator. Some of the better designs include a seat that closes the fitting off when the inflator button is not pushed which effectivley prevents any air from leaking back out of the inflator. It's easy to check by filling your BC just short of activating the overpressure relief valve and disconnecting the PL hose. If there are no leaks the BC or wing will stay firmly inflated. If it does not stay inflated you have leak somewhere and if it is where the LP hose attaches - buy a better inflator.

If you dive a drysuit, a dual bladder BC arrangement is doubly redundant as the drysuit is the primary source of lift and the BC itself is a backup.

Most leaks are going to be very small and of no real consequence during the dive. Again, the only serious problem I have ever had was a malfunctioning dump/overpressure valve. And then it only leaked in a horizontal position so moving to a vertical position placed the valve at the bottom of the BC where it no longere mattered if it was water tight and allowed a safe ascent.

The only exception to this that I can think of was the Watergill AT PAK which was essentially a late 70's vintage wing and backpack with weight integration. (pretty cutting edge for the time) It incorporated an OPV the inflator hose that really was inadequate to the point that in a rapid ascent you could potentially blow the seams on the wing. Still despite it's limits, I dove one for years and it was a welcome relief when back inflation and wings came back into style.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Well, I understand now why this happened to you. You have heard of Karma, right?

LOL!

Hope you don't take this comment the wrong way. People keep pigeonholing me...and well, let's move on to the actual discussion.

Wing failures.

I am aware (having witnessed, been told or read about) several wing failures.

2 spontaneous wing inflations due to 1st stage hp seat failure. In one or both (don't remember) this also blew the 2nd out of the guys mouth.

1 spontaneous wing inflation due to junk getting stuck in the valve. I wasn't there, I was told about it. I asked a couple times, "did you touch the inflator" and the guy said, "NO, the bc just inflated by itself". Don't ask me how this is possible, but please take note if you have dual bladders and hook them both up.

A few seam failures...but we're talking a trickling of gas which didn't even warrant aborting the dive. These were on Halcyon wings, and AFAIK they have dealt with the problem. Note that these were all on the single tank wings, which are a different design (just one bladder, no outer covering).

One pull dump coming off in the guys hand. This was on a rental BC, and I was in the store when the guy brough it in. The owner made him pay for the repair!!!

I personally dive a single wing Halcyon. I had a bungy wing but it creates too much drag, a smooth surface is much better. I don't like dual wings, because they are unnecessary. A balanced rig will allow you to easily deal with a wing failure, especially if you dive dry.

Another issue with a hooked up second wing is that it may inflate very slowly, and you may not realize it's happening until you start to be too light...then you have to figure out WHICH of the two is causing the problem etc.

IMO, this falls under the KISS rule.

....and no, I"m not trying to tell anyone how to dive....y'all can do whatever you want, including horse collars and J valves.

PS Most inflator hoses don't have a big flange. If anyone knows of a place where one can get custom size hoses with big flanges on the connector I'd be greatful for the info. When that thing inflates, you don't want to fiddle around.

 

[padiscubapro]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...

If you dive a drysuit, a dual bladder BC arrangement is doubly redundant as the drysuit is the primary source of lift and the BC itself is a backup.

The drysuit buoyancy thing is taught to OW divers (who cant manage multiple auir spaces), its generally not the preferred method for tech divers..

The amount of gas necessary in many (not all cases) make diving the drysuit as the primary buoyancy (even emergency buoyancy) unconfortable , unsafe (those who dive this way usually get gators).. Personally I don't think a drysuit is a good backup bouyancy device period.. I would use it as a 3rd backup (before I used a liftbag).. the reason being the amount of gas thats generally necessary for heavier configs especially on shell type suits has a big gas bubble moving around.. in many cases if the diver goes head up, the neck seal vents and the diver gets wet and loses alot of buoyancy.. this is especially true on dives that going up an anchor line is necessary (and to be head up at times) so you can pay attention what is above you..

Doppler.. the only inflator attachment I have seen that could give you a head ache is halycon, everyone else puts the attachment off to the side so you just put the two bladders on opposite each other a stow the second inflator somewhere.. even along the tank is ok...

 

[The Chairman]

We have more in common than you think... (and probably less than I think)

I am not DIR/GUE, but also dive a Hogarthian rig when I dive doubles.

I have a garage that needs attention, but am wasting time here!

As for space... my 100# OMS is the infamous bungeed style, so it has never stopped me from entering a hole or doorway. They have never snagged my either. The inflator and hose are always bungeed on the right side when this wing is used. It has never gotten in my way. For most of my doubles diving though, I use a 55# non-bungeed wing.

The "deployment" of the second bladder is pretty simple. First, off if there is any issue with the left bladder (including a run-away valve) it is quickly disconnected. The right inflator is simply bungeed to the wing in such a fashion that a quick pull gets it free and then I either inflate it orally or plug it in (with a hose running from the left regulator). After neutrality has been established, I will stick the left inlator under a bungee to keep it out of the way and to reduce confusion. Once redundancy has been violated, the dive is ended in the safest possible manner.

Most scuba "emergencies" need thought more than time. If you remain clear headed enough, you can think your way out of just about any predicament. Panic is your worst enemy under water. I will agree with you that it's not gonna happen very often. I punctured my bladder once, and it was anything but catastrophic (even with them thar dangerous bungees). Sure I had to add air here and there, but I had figured it was my error until I surfaced and my buddy showed me where I was leaking. A wing is a wing. I would not stop diving a particular wing because it had a double bladder. Other issues like age and integrity are far more important.

Oh yeah... thanks for answering! I hope I answered yours fairly.

 

[Doppler]

NetDoc once bubbled...
SNIPPED

As for space... my 100# OMS is the infamous bungeed style, so it has never stopped me from entering a hole or doorway. They have never snagged my either. The inflator and hose are always bungeed on the right side when this wing is used. It has never gotten in my way. For most of my doubles diving though, I use a 55# non-bungeed wing.

MORE SNIPPING

My issue concerning space IS based on experience and has to do with wing profile I guess. Here's what happened.

There's a wreck in Lake Ontario I used for wreck penetration classes. The forward compartments where good for initial practice. One year, wearing a newly purchased pair of bungee 100# wings, I found passage through doorways that with a single wing was easy, were now a struggle. And in fact I had to turn sideways to achieve entry.

The mention of neck strain with regard to the bungee was that the pair I owned bunched up behind the head making it very hard to look forward when horizontal.

Coupled with the space thing, I realised that the design and function of this style of wing, didn't suit MY needs, and a benefit analysis (conducted using MY criteria) came out negative. I sold them and got another set of single bladder... I think that pair were original OMS... whatever, pre Halcyon Days (I have always wanted to use that phrase in a diving context!!)


Couple of years later I was teaching a student from Michigan -- who's on this board -- and she suffered from the same "ailment." I lent her a single bladder (it was the original Halcyon with the offset flange PadiScubaPro) and her pain disappeared.

More recently, I've noticed students with bungeed wings have a bit more of a challenge with some of the buoyancy and attidude skills compared to how they do when lent a single bladder. Of course that's a subjective assessment.

However, that said. I do not "forbid" a student from using a bungeed wings in a class... I do sometimes find that by the end of it though, they're buying something else. ... AND I do not understand the "Wings of Death" comments. As previously stated, I think their a waste of space, time and money, but fail to see how they cause death... I can see how they might contribute to confusion.

COUPLE of COMMENTS

Braunbehrens: Of course I've heard about Karma... that's why I'm still here dealing with other people's suffering


PadiScubaPro: good catch on the drysuit as primary buoyancy thing. I am getting more and more people turning up for training who start off using this technique. Man they have trouble with the basic techniques sessions!

Dive safe... and remember, I don't care what wings you use, just dive safe.

Doppler

 

[DA Aquamaster]

padiscubapro once bubbled...


The drysuit buoyancy thing is taught to OW divers (who cant manage multiple auir spaces), its generally not the preferred method for tech divers..

I think my statement has been taken to mean more than was meant. If you have a dry suit you have a fixed amount of bouyancy from the air required in the suit to keep it warm and you will need to maintain this throughout the dive. You are going to have to manage this air volume regardless and unless you ahve avery heavy set up, most of the bouancy is still going to come from the suit..

Now I agree completely that too much air in the suit hard to manage and will vent out the neck seal at what is normally the most inopportune times. Obviously with heavier configurations such a stage bottles, and in particular steel stage bottles if you use them, you will have to augment the lift in the suit with air in the wing.

I don't agree that a drysuit does not make a good backup under any circumstances. Yes, you have to watch the vertical positioning to keep from venting air out the neck, but it is better than some of the other options and in my opinion better than carrying a redundant aircell on all of your dives that will in all likelyhood never be used.

 

[Doppler]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


I think my statement has been taken to mean more than was meant.

Happens all the time around here... don't worry about it=-)

 

[Braunbehrens]

Someone mentioned new drysuit divers having trouble with controllign multiple air spaces. The easiest way to dive a drysuit is with the shoulder dump open all the way. Simply shrug once in a while if gas accumulates around the shoulders, but other than that, and occasionally adding a squirt of gas, it's not much different from wetsuit diving.

IMO that's actually easier than using the drysuit for buoyancy even for people just learning with a drysuit.

Just my opinion, of course....

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Doppler once bubbled...


Happens all the time around here... don't worry about it=-)

Actually, I am rather impressed with scuba board as a whole. Even with the diverse opinions that float around, it stays remarkably civil in here. That says a lot about the quality and charactor of the members.