Punctured wings

[tyrell]

Several weeks ago during a deep dive, the inflator got sucked in a way that if the inflator hose was connected it was in constant flow and when disconnected the wing could not hold the air inside, and all the air got leaked out. :wacko:

I switched to the second blade and completed the dive as planned.

It was possible to complete the dive without using the second wing but since it was a Trimix dive with no bottom actually it was there somewhere very deep, and I was not planning to visit it in this dive. My first thought after i disconnected the hose from the inflator after it went into free flow and got out the extra air from the wing was 'thank god i have the second wing so i don’t have to worry balancing myself ' this dive was complex enough without adding the equipment problems.

The second wing is a backup, u can do without it but its a safety item that its important to take. What i have learned during the years that u don’t play with the backup and the safety, eventually u will need them and it will happen when its mostly unexpected.


cheers
mark

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I have never punctured a wing but did have a faulty dump valve/OPV that stuck on itself (turns out it was the subject of a recall). It was placed low on the wing however and still allowed a normal ascent. Similarly the location of the puncture is a factor and often a little body positioning to keep the leak at the low side will allow some semblance of a normal ascent.

 

[Doppler]

I am not sure that there is any real data out there to prove or disprove arguements about wing failure.

I have approximately 2100 dives on wings... three pairs... and have never had a puncture, tear or seam failure. Among a peer group (my dive buddies) I recently conducted a survey (it's one of the things my company does) and discovered that in more than 15,000 "technical dives" there had only been two cases of inwater wing failure... both due to bad storage practices and both discovered during surface SDrill pre-dive procedures.

Based on this data (which I admit is far from complete) wing failure simply is not a priority issue and double bladders are -- IMHO -- are a waste of space, time and money. As well, they over complicate the issue of redundant floatation.

However, I am facinated by the circumstances of the dive cited a couple of post previously... Mark can you please explain why the air leaked after you had disconnected the free-flowing inflator?

Thanks

***PROVISO... I dive dry***

 

[The Chairman]

Please eludidate... especially on the first two. How can it be a "waste of space" when they both fit fine in the same wing? I have even less of an idea how you get the notion that they will "waste time". How? Then you might compare prices of dual bladder wings with single bladder as well. Probably not that great of a difference. But then, price should never be the sole issue that determines your gear set-up.

Just because you don't dive them, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Just because you don't understand them, doesn't invalidate their use by those who do. If you learn how to configure and dive a dual bladder correctly then all of these "negatives" are non-issues, and the second bladder brings redundancy (a good thing) into your diving. But of course, if you have never dove one or dove with someone who really knew how to configure them, then I can see why you guys have all of the mis-conceptions about them. I get the same treatment from dive operators who see my long hose... they just don't understand it, because they have never opened their eyes to the possibility.

That being said... most of my diving does not require dual bladders. But when the need is there (wreck penetration, etc) I use them.

 

[Doppler]

NetDoc once bubbled...
Please eludidate... especially on the first two. How can it be a "waste of space" when they both fit fine in the same wing? I have even less of an idea how you get the notion that they will "waste time". How? Then you might compare prices of dual bladder wings with single bladder as well. Probably not that great of a difference. But then, price should never be the sole issue that determines your gear set-up.

Just because you don't dive them, doesn't mean you shouldn't. Just because you don't understand them, doesn't invalidate their use by those who do. If you learn how to configure and dive a dual bladder correctly then all of these "negatives" are non-issues, and the second bladder brings redundancy (a good thing) into your diving. But of course, if you have never dove one or dove with someone who really knew how to configure them, then I can see why you guys have all of the mis-conceptions about them. I get the same treatment from dive operators who see my long hose... they just don't understand it, because they have never opened their eyes to the possibility.

That being said... most of my diving does not require dual bladders. But when the need is there (wreck penetration, etc) I use them.

Jeez: what did I say to deserve this?
I certainly DID NOT say "you shouldn't dive them." I don't know who you are or where you dive. How can I presume to know what you should and should not dive. I DID say IMHO they're a waste...

I also would like to to explain what you mean by "YOU GUYS" since I'm not sure what guys I am part of in your world... do you mean guys who dive a single bladder or what?

And as far as your comment about never trying it, the opinions I have and that I teach and that I promote are based on experience my friend... experience and a desire to make the passage of others through the quagmire of learning a little more straighforward.

Many years of diving all over the globe has opened my eyes to more than you can image. I wish you enlightenment DOC and suggest a little less caffine

Doppler

 

[Charlie99]

Doppler once bubbled...
... Mark can you please explain why the air leaked after you had disconnected the free-flowing inflator?

Without LPI hose disconnected, hold down the button of the inflator to simulate a free-flowing inflator. Does air trickle back out of the male end of the LPI connection? It does on mine.

The quick disconnects automatically close the female end (the one on the hose), but leaves the male end (the one on the BC) open.


This means that, if you have a stuck inflator button and continue the dive after disconnecting the LPI hose, you will have to periodically add air to your BC because it will trickle out backwards through the stuck inflator.

 

[Doppler]

Charlie99 once bubbled...
Without LPI hose disconnected, hold down the button of the inflator to simulate a free-flowing inflator. Does air trickle back out of the male end of the LPI connection? It does on mine.

The quick disconnects automatically close the female end (the one on the hose), but leaves the male end (the one on the BC) open.


This means that, if you have a stuck inflator button and continue the dive after disconnecting the LPI hose, you will have to periodically add air to your BC because it will trickle out backwards through the stuck inflator.

OK: I think I understand the situation you were in... (Later note: no, you're not Mark!!!) And I think trickle is the correct verb to use. I would have to simulate the situation over a long dive to find out the full effect. I do practice the "drill" of uncoupling the LP hose from my wings -- dealing with the free-flowing inflator -- and then orally inflating the wings 'til NBuoyancy is attained.... or course during the disconnect I'm purging gas from the inflator to make the simulation "more realistic" and the oral inflation is usually a needed step

I have swum around with the hose disconnected for a while and haven't noticed much air loss... but as I said, I'm gonna have to try this one in situ with the mechanism in "free-flow" open mode... (wonder if duct tape would work?)

I've had stuck inflators before.... oh, lordy... I have had a stuck inflator... usually due to service issues. I found "purcussive maintainence" worked as a temporary fix!

OK, so if I understand it, in the situation you described, you were then able to go over to your "back-up" wing system... new wing, new inflator, new situation?

Did you drain the first wing or did it drain itself?

Still have me doubts -- -- but if we all dove exactly the same gear, what the H**L would we talk about?

Oh, I know... wrecks and caves and critters... but that's another forum isn't it!

Take care Mark


Doppler

 

[cornfed]

Doppler once bubbled...

Jeez: what did I say to deserve this?

And from a "Senior Regulator" none the less...

 

[The Chairman]

if you do that, then we might as well ALL stop posting!!! Your post seems to indicate that I have called you some horrendous name or insinuated some level of incompetence, when all I am asking for is clarification. Please don't ask me to merely accept your opinion as valid without any corroborating logic and/or proof.

You made a statement I have heard numerous times, and still no one will "splain it to me". I.E.

IMHO -- are a waste of space, time and money.

You did a great job pointing out how unfair my question is and how I have dumped all over you... but you never did answer me. IMHO's are great... and humility is a quality sadly lacking in our sport, but I would like to believe that you have some reasoning behind your stance. Please tell us what that reasoning is so I won't assume that you are merely regurgitating what another has said.

Now go back and re-read the second paragraph. I never said you haven't dove a double bladder wing. I said... that I could understand you (or anyone) having many misconceptions if you had not dove with one, or if you had not been taught how to configure one properly. I don't know your level of experience is, and frankly do not care, but if the shoe fits wear it. You have chosen to take exception with someone who has merely asked you to explain yourself... and just what am I to deduce from that???

In the immortal words of an infamous former Georgian Governor: "Quit pussy-footin' around and answer the dang questions!"

And no, I won't make any condescending statements like "a little less caffeine", and I will try to NOT assume what you meant ( I will ask), and I will do my level best to not read more into your post than warranted.

BTW your response has brought two more questions to mind...
1) Have you ever dove a dual bladder wing? (Be honest)
2) Has anyone shown you how to configure it properly, or did you just assume there was only one way to do it? (If yes, who was it?)

And don’t forget these three standing questions…
3) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of space?
4) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of time?
5) How (in your opinion) are “dual bladder” wings a waste of money?

I am waiting your humble yet cogent reply.

 

[ScoobieDooo]

Talk about nickpicking...