PSAI Narcosis Management course - 73m on air

[usmarinekurt]

Every driver has their own personal alcohol limits and should respect them. Personally, I can drive with well over a .08, done it many times for years and I haven't died yet! I've been driving drunk since you were in UnderRoos! Its all about constant self assessment: Am I between the lines? How's my speed? Are my hands at 10 and 2? Gas and brake pedals are muscle memory for me. I learned all about it in my Drunk Driving course I took over on I-75. Its an official course! If I die, its my business, no one else's. We live in 'Mericuh where we're all free to do whatever we want. Who are you to tell me what my alcohol limit is?

Does that sound absurd? It is. If I can't get a ride home (or don't want to pay for a taxi), I just don't drink. Same with diving. No helium (at a price I want to pay) and I stay shallow or out of the water. There are lots of dives that I haven't done because of this.

Thanks for your long windedness
your ego is creating a narcosis of its own

---------- Post added ----------

I'll be sitting by the phone, my gear in a pile around me waiting for your call! And I'll dive all the way to the bottom, narcosis and caution be damned, because the scuba police are only here, not in the real world.

I am back in town tomorrow.
We are leaving the marina at 0800'ish
ill give you details
i will have double 100s and two divers diving with singles
the only police on the boat will be Lila

 

[dumpsterDiver]

And that method is based on science? The person under the influence of something is in a really poor position to judge how much they're under its influence. Drunk drivers always think they're "good to drive". Same thing. You ARE impaired, and that impairment extends as far as to influence the degree that you think you're impaired. That's ridiculous.

Interesting that almost every death past 100' involves ENDs greater than 100'. Correlation doesn't mean causation, but its tough to have causation without it... I'll patiently sit here while someone comes up with a list of 5 (just 5) deaths that occurred past 100' with an END of less than 100'. Surely someone will deliver...

HA HA.. That is pretty damn funny.. I bet there are very few deaths at a depth of 80 feet with an END of less than 80 feet.... Or how about 60 feet?

Does this prove anything?

 

[mathauck0814]

Kind of... it's not an exact, but I was trained that PPN2 > 3.0 ATA is generally where people start to feel the effects of narcosis. An END <80 feet wouldn't meet that requirement. END >100 feet gets you into that territory. The better agencies teach that an END of 100 is appropriate for planning. Personally, I'm comfortable with slightly deeper - but that's based on practice and observation. YMMV

 

[PfcAJ]

HA HA.. That is pretty damn funny.. I bet there are very few deaths at a depth of 80 feet with an END of less than 80 feet.... Or how about 60 feet?

Does this prove anything?

You must have stopped reading at the comma, and that's about what I'd expect.

 

[Centrals]

From my post #174 "Trimix I'm sure is great but it isnot essential for deep diving." This would indicate correctly that I have zero trimix experience. I never claimed any. I do claim many years, many dives, and manyhours diving deep on air before trimix was available to the general public and before tech diving had a name. The Navy, Cousteau and commercial divers werethe only divers using mixed gas when I was diving to the bottom at Castle Hill Newport,RI charted max depth 200fsw all though I never found that hole. One can’t dive with gas that’s not available. Back then I was doing what every other sportdiver diving deep was doing, the best I could. I never had the money to pursue trimix training and the required equipment. I don’t dive deep anymore been there donethat. Around here in RI unless it’s a wreckthere is nothing to see below 80fsw expect mud and broken shells.

There are instructors who would only teach PADI Tec 50 ONLY if He is added to the bottom mix.

 

[AfterDark]

There are instructors who would only teach PADI Tec 50 ONLY if He is added to the bottom mix.

There was no PADI, no HE use, no BCDs, no SPGs no PDCs, no NITROX, no O2 use for deco, no HP tanks back then, just air at 2250 psi in 72 cuft tanks. The more tanks you had the more air you had, the deeper you could go and the longer you could stay if you could stand the long hang times often longer, than the BT. And that's the way it was, I know how it is now and it is infinitly better these days. Just having NITROX and O2 has made diving much easier and safer. The way I see it is, if it wasn't for divers of my generation and the generation before mine, diving to great depths on air, you mixed gas divers would still be watching divers diving air on NATGEO waiting for a safer way to dive. Or would you?

 

[DCBC]

And that method is based on science? The person under the influence of something is in a really poor position to judge how much they're under its influence. Drunk drivers always think they're "good to drive". Same thing. You ARE impaired, and that impairment extends as far as to influence the degree that you think you're impaired. That's ridiculous...

Alcohol affects everyone differently; as does narcosis. I think that the point you're making, is that that alcohol (and nitrogen) will adversely affect everyone. This is of course true, so I take your point. It is also important to understand and quantify, the extent of impairment and how said impairment specifically affects the individual. Moreover, when the level of impairment affects the diver's safety. Like alcohol, we each have to make this determination individually.

As we have discussed this before, you may be aware that I was once the Diving Operations Officer (Navy) at DCIEM. In this position, I was involved in extensive testing of Nitrogen Narcosis on inexperienced and experienced deep-air divers. What we found, was that a large difference often exists between these two groups. Over the years, Navy and Commercial divers have countless hours of working at depth breathing air without narcosis causing a hazard to the diver, or the job being undertaken.

Is a diver impaired breathing air at depth? Yes. >It's interesting to note that in numerous DCIEM studies, 100% of divers show signs of impairment at 50 FSW!!!
Does this mean that they are unsafe to dive in 50 FSW? No.

The Navy has established a minimum set of physical and mental skill-sets, that every diver must achieve before being cleared to dive. This is accomplished in a RC at 200 FSW. EVERY Navy diver that is actively diving today, meets this requirement.

Having been diving as long as I have, I take exception to people saying that if I dive air at 200 feet that I'm too impaired to be in the water at that depth. I certainly don't advise anyone to dive deep on-air without the necessary training and experience. Air below 100 feet is a hazard, as are many of the divers certified today (at any depth), but that's another discussion...

 

[PfcAJ]

Commercial and military diving does NOT equal recreational scuba diving.

There is a stack of deep air deaths, and an extremely short list (of which I'm still patiently waiting for someone to produce) of "low END at depth" deaths. Its pretty cut and dry, guys. Its 2012, not 1973 when helium was some great unknown.

The stack of deep air deaths will continue to grow until this pointless practice stops.

 

[wedivebc]

This argument seems quite pointless. The fact is most divers operating at or below 100ft are using air so it's obvious most accidents below 100 will be on air.

 

[gcbryan]

It's also pointless because it lumps "technical" divers and dives with "idiot divers and dives".

Most deaths below 100 fsw such as 200 fsw on air using an aluminum 80 with 10 dives under ones belt are idiot dives. Lack of helium isn't really the issue.