Pros & Cons of Using a Full Face Mask

[tankdiver]

wats everyones experience with the breathing resistance on the various ffms people have used

 

[mntdiver]

Sorry I think the AGA sucks. Just cause the Navy, the CG, and a boatload of aquariums use it doesn't mean squat. Some of these groups have demonstrated they don't really know how to dive all that well. Certainly a chunk of the Seattle aquarium divers are "so so". Considering the marginal bouyancy and fin skills I have observed, adding another layer of complexity to (the admittedly very shallow) dives doesn't help.

I'm assuming that it doesn't mean squat because they don't know what they're doing? Other masks that are obviously better are just being ignored and not even considered because??? I see your point, it's not a good mask because people don't take the time to learn how to use it or don't have the basic scuba skills to master the use of a piece of equipment that should be considered somewhat advanced, let alone buoyancy or finning skills.

The mask is a one size fits most, not all. On average, my observations are that it fits about four out of five, three out of five very well. For those that it doesn't fit, there are some fixes, but I find them usually less than satisfactory. The mask could be made of gold, if you can't get it to fit, it's not worth a penny. There are some that the mask would work for very well, if they knew how to use it. But, for a lot of these divers, it's just junk, certainly it's not their lack of skill.

 

[rjack321]

Actually I was specifically thinking of the divers who died on the Healy using AGAs. In one rather convulted sense their use of FFMs limited their ability to orally inflate their BCs. Not like it was the only contributor to that disaster and I certainly don't blame the choice of the AGA there. I can't recall why they weren't using power inflators. But they may have been more likely to attempt to orally inflate if they weren't in FFMs.

For the divers I see in the aquarium the FFM is so-so. Not a huge deal breaker but not necessarily helping them be poised and good in the water either. Sometimes it contributes to problems - mostly related to fit (water leaks) or nose clearing. My own problems have been with: 1) rebreathing gas and CO2 from leaky valves, 2) nose clearing.

I like the concepts behind the M48 mentioned earlier alot better. Although for open water technical diving I prefer the simplicity and standardization provided by ordinary 2nd stages and low volume masks.

I would like to find a "mouth pod" or something like the OMS mask

for IWR use, even if its just 20mins on O2 at 20ft. Minor amounts of field treatment prior to transport to a chamber is definately an option for me and my buddies. I'd like to have that option be as safe as possible.

 

[mntdiver]

Actually I was specifically thinking of the divers who died on the Healy using AGAs. In one rather convulted sense their use of FFMs limited their ability to orally inflate their BCs. Not like it was the only contributor to that disaster and I certainly don't blame the choice of the AGA there. I can't recall why they weren't using power inflators. But they may have been more likely to attempt to orally inflate if they weren't in FFMs.

Wow, now there's a jump. I read all the posted reports on the Healey. I can't recall any conclusion that the FFM had ANY contribution to the incident. Maybe we can blame the mask for their weights not being ditched. What a stretch... Rationality seems to have left this discussion...

 

[rjack321]

No I am pointing out there's a strong disincentive to orally inflate when using a FFM in <32F water. And sometimes power inflators fail and you need to disconnnect and orally inflate.

The Healy divers were rediculously overweighted, had no power inflators hooked up, had no trained/knowledgable line tenders, were technical diving during a party, and a bunch of other problems - the biggest being that they weren't qualified and experienced enough to actually do the dive (on paper yes, in practice no).

They happened to be wearing AGAs and really the ONLY way they could use their BCs was to orally inflate. Would they have orally inflated if they weren't wearing FFMs? I doubt it. Would they have at least had that option with a normal mask+2nd stage? Yes, to a greater degree than with the AGAs they were wearing.

 

[Otter]

No I am pointing out there's a strong disincentive to orally inflate when using a FFM in <32F water. And sometimes power inflators fail and you need to disconnnect and orally inflate.

The Healy divers were rediculously overweighted, had no power inflators hooked up, had no trained/knowledgable line tenders, were technical diving during a party, and a bunch of other problems - the biggest being that they weren't qualified and experienced enough to actually do the dive (on paper yes, in practice no).

They happened to be wearing AGAs and really the ONLY way they could use their BCs was to orally inflate. Would they have orally inflated if they weren't wearing FFMs? I doubt it. Would they have at least had that option with a normal mask+2nd stage? Yes, to a greater degree than with the AGAs they were wearing.

"..the ONLY way they could use their BCs was to orally inflate." Where did this come from? You mean because they were OOA? Or maybe they could have orally inflated their dry suits too?

While it does take a little extra effort to remove the FFM in order to orally inflate the BCD, if I were in a situation where orally inflating my BCD was necessary, I am sure I wouldn't notice the difference.

 

[muddiver]

I have tried the mouth mask; it fits my temples better :d

I am not using FFMs outside the aquarium (and already said so a couple pages ago). Thank God for that.

Sorry I think the AGA sucks. Just cause the Navy, the CG, and a boatload of aquariums use it doesn't mean squat. Some of these groups have demonstrated they don't really know how to dive all that well. Certainly a chunk of the Seattle aquarium divers are "so so". Considering the marginal bouyancy and fin skills I have observed, adding another layer of complexity to (the admittedly very shallow) dives doesn't help.

E.g. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone kick a reef or the pilings in the dome while struggling to clear their ears in the AGA cause it doesn't seal on their schnoze very well. Or the number of times I have discovered the valves are leaking and I'm fogging up while getting a pounding Co2 headache. Its a royal pain to try to reseat those with dry gloves on.

So overall the AGA is yesterday's technology IMO - they still work and have many followers. The M48 looks like a superior system addressing alot of weak points though. Since I have to use a FFM in the dome, I wish I had the chance to try one out and compare.

The Long Beach Aquarium of the Pacific was the first outfit to get to use the M48 when Kirby Morgan came out with them. Like the AGA they have some issues, like they will fit a larger face better than the AGA (or I could have that back words, can't remember) and they are designed for you to use the gerulator's mouth piece most of the time. If you dive an aquarium it shouldn't be too much of a problem to have your DSO write a letter of resiprosity and come to the LBoP to try out the M48. Personally I like the M48 for SCUBA way more than the AGA because teh AGA was really designed to be a surface supplied light weight mask and the M48 is designed for use as a SCUBA mask.

I am really sorry to hear your opinion of the military diving program, but you are comparing lead cannon balls to oranges. The Navy does not need divers that can hover over a coral head, look pretty in a picture or have color coordinated gear. It's all about getting work done, under water using the most basic of life support equipment after being introduced to and trained to dive in only eight weeks. It's worse than commercial diving school because most of the graduates had probably never been underwater before Navy dive school.

The U.S. Navy is the top of the bunch as far as the combined knowledge of diving and that goes into the equipment they use. Unfortunately they might have a set of equipment for a very long period because of the process of military contracting, standardization, procurement, testing and final issue of the equipment they use. The MK V is a great example, but it is still one of the best deep diving set ups available.

The Navy is the only place that I am aware of that can test any type of dive equipment to certify that it will perform as designed at any depth. The Superflow 350 regulator on the M48 is tested to, I think, 1600 FSW buy the U.S.N. Tell me the other regulators that meet that teat.

 

[muddiver]

wats everyones experience with the breathing resistance on the various ffms people have used

On the Kirby Morgan M48: very little.

With the AGA: I was too busy trying to figure out how to use the nose block to clear.

The EXO 26, KMB 18/28 come with adjustable regulators so resistance is reduced when the regulator is dialled out.

 

[rjack321]

"..the ONLY way they could use their BCs was to orally inflate." Where did this come from? You mean because they were OOA? Or maybe they could have orally inflated their dry suits too?

While it does take a little extra effort to remove the FFM in order to orally inflate the BCD, if I were in a situation where orally inflating my BCD was necessary, I am sure I wouldn't notice the difference.

They didn't have LP hoses for the BC power inflators. I don't know why. Actually I was wrong, they could have disconnected their drysuit hoses and used that to inflate their BCs. Considering they were basically in uncontrolled descents to ~200ft (the limit of their surface tender lines) they were screwed to start with.

Sorry Muddiver I was thinking of the many training and experience issues in the CG diving program that were disclosed during the Healy investigation. I have high regard for military and commercial divers who get appropraite training and are provided sufficient on the job experience and practice to do their jobs as intended.

 

[rjack321]

With the AGA: I was too busy trying to figure out how to use the nose block to clear.

LOL I agree whole heartedly.

I wish I could try an M48 but I'm not all that motivated to go and buy one as a volunteer diver in our local aquarium. Its fun, I enjoy the experience. Just dislike the AGA with surface supply hose. Seems rediculously over complicated to dive in 18ft of sand and carbon filtered water (i.e. super clean). And I think its a rather complicated approach for open water 'sport' technical diving.