Proper Nitrox ID

[Colliam7]

but following PADI's suggestion here is arguably unsafe (and not just because it causes you to do a flawed, non-compliant VIP to save your customers $6).

And, 'arguably' is absolutely the right word. And, I can comfortably argue that it is not 'unsafe'. Even in the early editions of his book Bill High recommended that all stickers should be removed. I understand that, and appreciate the reasons why, But, the chance of isolated external corrosion - undetected because of a failure to remove a nitrox wrap - causing a cylinder to fail is so miniscule that it is probably not worth discussing. Corrosion under a boot is a far more likely issue, and I have seen VIPs done elsewhere for which the boot is not removed, even though all stickers are removed. That simply makes no sense. I have failed cylinders for interior corrosion and pitting. I have only failed one cylinder that I can recall because of external corrosion, and that one had been re-painted.

It's hard to blame divers who get annoyed when your shop suggests they need anything except prominent MOD markings, analysis tape, and a VIP sticker somewhere unobtrusive.

I agree, I don't blame them, and didn't say I did. It is just something that we have to live with. Whether I agree with the policy is irrelevant, it is shop policy and I follow it.

 

[NAM001]

I agree with the IN COMMERCE being the key

One interesting point is that the labeling requirements in 49 CFR 172 only apply to a "person who offers a hazardous material for transportation" or a "carrier by air, highway, rail, or water who transports a hazardous material." 49 CFR 172.3(a). Ditto the O2 cleaning requirements for AL cylinders in 49 CFR 173.302(b), which only apply to cylinders "offered for transportation." 49 CFR 173.301(a) and 173.302(a).

However, 49 CFR 171.1, which governs to whom the entire HMR can apply, speaks of its applicability being the limited context of "transportation of a hazardous material in commerce" and specifically exempts "Transportation of a hazardous material by an individual for non-commercial purposes in a private motor vehicle." And "carrier" is defined in the HMR as being limited to transport "in commerce":" Carrier means a person who transports passengers or property in commerce by rail car, aircraft, motor vehicle, or vessel." 49 CFR 171.8.

The wrinkle is that "transportation" as defined in the HMR does not get limited to that which occurs "in commerce": "Transportation or transport means the movement of property and loading, unloading, or storage incidental to that movement." 49 CFR 171.8. So there's an argument that the labeling and cleaning requirements of the HMR apply even without there being transport in commerce, like when you go to drop your tank off for filling or pick it up from filling.

Still, it's ultimately a bad argument because of the breadth of 49 CFR 171.1(d)(6): "Functions not subject to the requirements of the HMR. The following are examples of activities to which the HMR do not apply: Transportation of a hazardous material by an individual for non-commercial purposes in a private motor vehicle, including a leased or rented motor vehicle." Taking that statement, which exempts a type of "transportation," and looking at labeling/cleaning requirement sections that say they apply when "offered for transportation"...it's pretty clear that nothing in the HMR applies to anything in connection with private, non-commercial transportation.

Not that any of this statutory parsing really matters, of course, because no shop in its right mind will fill things with O2 without knowing they're clean

---------- Post added November 24th, 2013 at 11:16 AM ----------

Colliam

When i took my vip course we were shown a tank filled < 5 times that was rejected because of a gouge in it that exceeded the say .060 allowed. The legnth short enough to be puttied in and/or covered by a sticker. the tank was hit by a boat prop. The same thing would happen with a tank with rust pits from doubles converted back to singles. So yea , for me all stickers come off. Its a shame that the big nitrox sticker that some shops require are so expensive. On the bright side a real vip should be much more than 10-15 dollars anyway.

And, 'arguably' is absolutely the right word. And, I can comfortably argue that it is not 'unsafe'. Even in the early editions of his book Bill High recommended that all stickers should be removed. I understand that, and appreciate the reasons why, But, the chance of isolated external corrosion - undetected because of a failure to remove a nitrox wrap - causing a cylinder to fail is so miniscule that it is probably not worth discussing. Corrosion under a boot is a far more likely issue, and I have seen VIPs done elsewhere for which the boot is not removed, even though all stickers are removed. That simply makes no sense. I have failed cylinders for interior corrosion and pitting. I have only failed one cylinder that I can recall because of external corrosion, and that one had been re-painted.I agree, I don't blame them, and didn't say I did. It is just something that we have to live with. Whether I agree with the policy is irrelevant, it is shop policy and I follow it.