Product Review: New “Generation 2” BARE SB Drysuit

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You are using the light gray 2 piece base layer and the one piece dark grey/black midlayer? I love their base layer and other then bulk I love the midlayer too. I spent 3 hours in 70 degree water and felt just a bit cold, when I got out I then realized the suit had pretty much fully flooded. Unfortunately I can't reach my left valve while wearing it because it is so bulky. If my trilam was a bit larger it would be OK, but it isn't.
 
Yep, same gear, same experience, same opinion... Although I haven't ever flooded a suit with this undergarment.

At 70 degrees I loved the base layer only. Any warmer and I'd dive UnderArmour only. Both of those options weight me exactly how I'd weight in a 3 mil wetsuit... And unlike a 3 mil, would be great for working dives down to about 63 or 65 degrees. If I wasn't working (eg caving, deco) the base layer only would probably only be good to about 70 or 75 degrees.

I've heard that a double base layer is warm into the 50's and even 40's. If so, that'd be a great stop-gap between a lone base layer and a lone mid layer, which is very warm but bulky.
 
I originally loved my SB suit very much. It's a really nice suit and I wish I still loved it as much as you. There are several qualities I really enjoy about the suit, some of which you mentioned:

* It does drive similar to a wetsuit, it's very streamlined for a drysuit.
* Hanging it is super convenient.
* I can flip the suit completely inside out to dry as I use a neoprene sock and Bare Trek Boots, this helps me dry the inside of my suit very easily.
* this suit packs up really small, great for travel
* I haven't had any abrasion issues thus far
* love the plastic zipper

As for cons
* my patches have also started peeling off like yours, most of them are peeling actually. My knee pads are starting to unpeel and I am never on my knees.
* The tab that glues the zipper protector shut at he bottom has become unglued. I really wish Bare had put a protective zipper in front of the TiZip. I do a lot of shore diving and the last thing I want is to have a bunch of sand on my TiZip.
* Regarding pockets, I prefer the glue on cargo type pockets but the zip pocket is ok. I just wish they could have put a second zip pocket on the right leg or made it an option at the very least.I I can certainly fit a spare mask in the current pocket but it'd be nice to keep a smb or spool or something else in the other. Deal breaker? Well, maybe, if I were buying a suit today instead of when I was a really new diver I would probably opt for something else.
* As for drying times, it's a concern for my since I want to be able to fly with this suit on trips. I really would like to have the suit totally dry before the flight home, water is heavy and luggage weights have financial obligations, plus fast drying times allow me to put my suit away faster after my local dives (apartments usually don't have lots of space). Unless the material differs on our suits I disagree that a DUI TLS or Santi e.motion would only dry a bit faster than the Bare SB. My suit take a day to become bone dry, maybe 2 if you count the neoprene socks. A Trilam dries much faster, at least in a California non-humid environment.

I am afraid that the leak in my suit may be delimitation again. I hope that isn' the case, but it's something I'm always going to have a bad feeling about with this suit. Bare certainly took care of me by building me a new suit, but the turnaround time is not quick.

The mid layer undergarments are good in my opinion. I'm pretty happy with it, even though the SB has a bad reputation due to the leaks I actually think they hit a home run with the undergarments. I dive in Monterey, CA and the water is about 50F year around. Unless I'm doing dives past 70 minutes they do a pretty decent job. With doubles I have no problems reaching my valves and manipulating them. I guess you mentioned they were bulky but compared to the DUI undergarments they are really thin. I also have a 4th element arctic and my SB Midlayer keeps me warmer.

In my opinion the SB was almost there. I really want to love this suit, but I can't go so far as to say it's perfect. So these are my suggestions to improve the suit (though not from a commercial diver's point of view, I'm just a recreational diver).

* No more delamiantion / leaking problems please
* move the shoulder dump valve back (this pertains to all Bare suits)
* SiTech replaceable neck seals (I think this is not possible on the SB system?)
* Protective YKK Zipper in front of the TiZip
* 2 pockets needed, cargo is best but the zipper pocket is ok. Make this style of zipper optional if cargo pockets are added.
* stretch a little more for donning (like the original 1st gen)
* overall better quality so things are not peeling off less than 100 dives in
* would be nice if it could dry as fast as a TLS but the material just won't allow this to happen
 
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A great review! Sounds like our opinions differ a bit, but that's a great review!

I'm a big fan of this TiZip too. I had one on two of my SANTI suits. I've never had a single problem with any of them. I know it takes a while for the industry to adopt new technology (and with good reasons), but this needs to be universally adopted immediately. No zipper wax, lightweight and flexible, less bulk, and much easier to use then the YKK brass dry zips. I'll never own another suit without one.

The real magic in my opinion is the fabric. There's nothing like it on the market in trilaminate suits. The closest thing is probably a neoprene drysuit, but without the buoyancy, bulk, and long dry times.

The stretch of the suit has a secondary advantage of not needing an extending torso... So all of that bulk and air trapping and complexity is gone.

My SB weights exactly like a 3 mil full wetsuit when I wear only the base layer, which for me is good down to about 60 or 65 degrees - about what I'd dive in a 5 mil if I was diving wet. A virtually absent internal bubble (because the suit stretches and doesn't need to be lofted to get flexibility) means it dives like one, too.

* my patches have also started peeling off like yours, most of them are peeling actually. My knee pads are starting to unpeel and I am never on my knees.

Hunh. That's not something that I've experienced - or am looking forward to.

There's only two patches on the suit that I have... One shoulder (fine), and one in-between the shoulder blades (edges are peeling).

* The tab that glues the zipper protector shut at he bottom has become unglued. I really wish Bare had put a protective zipper in front of the TiZip. I do a lot of shore diving and the last thing I want is to have a bunch of sand on my TiZip.

Agreed... Although I haven't seen an issue with not having a protective zipper, and ALL of my diving is really mucky. I just rinse everything off before taking the suit off, which is standard for us anyway. I wouldn't operate the zip - or expose my clean undergarment - without rinsing first. Springs don't count, of course, because you're rinsing the entire dive. :)

I HAVE wondered about that tab, though... Seems pointless. Either ditch it or put in a full-length protective zipper.

* Regarding pockets, I prefer the glue on cargo type pockets but the zip pocket is ok. I just wish they could have put a second zip pocket on the right leg or made it an option at the very least.I I can certainly fit a spare mask in the current pocket but it'd be nice to keep a smb or spool or something else in the other. Deal breaker? Well, maybe, if I were buying a suit today instead of when I was a really new diver I would probably opt for something else.

Hunh. That's interesting. Perhaps BARE will change their minds and put bellows pockets on the SB, but there's no way I'd trade the flexibility of the stretch trilam for bellows pockets... And if they can't keep their own branded patches on the suit, why would they be able to keep a pocket on?

I'm not bothered by the lack of two bellows pockets... There's other solutions. Besides, I could easily keep two spools in my SB pocket as-is... I tend to clip them off to my butt ring anyway.

* As for drying times, it's a concern for my since I want to be able to fly with this suit on trips. I really would like to have the suit totally dry before the flight home, water is heavy and luggage weights have financial obligations, plus fast drying times allow me to put my suit away faster after my local dives (apartments usually don't have lots of space). Unless the material differs on our suits I disagree that a DUI TLS or Santi e.motion would only dry a bit faster than the Bare SB. My suit take a day to become bone dry, maybe 2 if you count the neoprene socks. A Trilam dries much faster, at least in a California non-humid environment.

This suit IS a trilam. And while I have seen an E.space or TLS350 perhaps dry slightly faster, it's only because the outer fabric is thinner - which isn't a good thing for durability.

Given your concerns, I was very interested to see how my SB dried last week during an all-night rainstorm. Fifty degrees and raining sideways, humidity at 100% in Savannah, and I hung it in my garage at about 8pm. By 7am when I left for work, it was dry.

I am afraid that the leak in my suit may be delimitation again. I hope that isn' the case, but it's something I'm always going to have a bad feeling about with this suit. Bare certainly took care of me by building me a new suit, but the turnaround time is not quick.

My suit took eight weeks to have custom-made, which seems to be the industry standard. Did yours take longer?

(continued)
 
The mid layer undergarments are good in my opinion. I'm pretty happy with it, even though the SB has a bad reputation due to the leaks I actually think they hit a home run with the undergarments. I dive in Monterey, CA and the water is about 50F year around. Unless I'm doing dives past 70 minutes they do a pretty decent job. With doubles I have no problems reaching my valves and manipulating them. I guess you mentioned they were bulky but compared to the DUI undergarments they are really thin. I also have a 4th element arctic and my SB Midlayer keeps me warmer.

Interesting that you mentioned that last one.

Yesterday Wonderful Wife and I took a 7-hour road trip to High Springs, FL to go check out the Fourth Element Arctic. I brought my SB, it's base and it's mid-layer with me to test.

Firstly, I LOVED the Fourth Element Xerotherm. Wow! It's virtually identical to the BARE SB base layer, but 1.5 times as thick (half again thicker). I'm not sure if this was because mine's been washed or not. It's better made and prettier, too, being all black, and has some nice touches like a subtle yet technical-looking screenprint on the back and some very unique and comfortable stirrups. The fit - especially the bottoms - seemed to be better, too, as I have found the BARE SB base layer to have an overly-long crotch. It's just as stretchy, too, and promises to be slightly warmer than the SB base layer. The best part is... They're the same price, and Fourth Element actually offers a value-priced combination package of a top, bottom, vest and socks. A home run. I'll definitely be ordering some of these.

The Arctic was pretty sweet, too, although a little different from the BARE mid-layer. It's perhaps half as thick as the BARE, and with half as much stretch. BARE's mid-layer is a single layer of "foamish" compression-resistant fleece, which makes it thicker and bulkier than the Arctic, but much stretchier. The Arctic takes a multilayer approach, with similar fleece on the inside and a fabric outside. The result appears to be thinner, perhaps not quite as warm (but it looks close), but with a lot less bulk and buoyancy, which are my main complaints with the BARE. In short, it's exactly what I was asking for in the post above.

I was particularly concerned that the Arctic wouldn't be stretchy enough to stretch with the SB suit... But I think that it is. No, it's not as stretchy as the BARE SB mid-layer, but I think it's stretchy enough for the drysuit. For reference, the SB drysuit stretches about like a 5 mil wetsuit - maybe even a 3 mil... Which appears to be about the same as the Arctic. The SB mid-layer stretches like a spandex dive skin.

I'll order one and see how it does.

I find it interesting that my complaint about the SB undergarments is that there appeared to be a very large jump from the warmth/thickness provided by the base layer versus the warmth/thickness provided by the mid-layer... And BARE says to wear them together! I found the jump to be really large just trading out one for the other... And Fourth Element seems to have bridged that gap much better. Their Xerotherm is warmer than the SB base and the Arctic is cooler than the SB mid.

Frankly, I'm just hoping to dump some of the lead. I hate really buoyant gear.

As a side note... Fourth Element is offering this year an "Arctic Expedition," which they say has additional thickness in key areas and some outer hydrophobic panels for shedding water, like if it's raining while donning and doffing. It'd be interesting to compare this to the warmth/thickness of the SB mid-layer, and I think would probably be a more accurate comparison. I suspect that the Arctic Expedition would be favored for the hydrophobic panels, but not be nearly as stretchy.

* move the shoulder dump valve back (this pertains to all Bare suits)

Yeah, I've noticed this too... It seems to hang up on my harness pretty easily when donning and doffing. I have to take more care than normal to ensure that I don't stress it. A minor annoyance, but I don't know why they did this.

* SiTech replaceable neck seals (I think this is not possible on the SB system?)

I think it was an option when I ordered mine. I didn't do the replaceable neck seal because I've seen it make donning and doffing a painful ordeal, and I've seen it cause harness fit issues along the collarbone. I did, however, opt for the replaceable wrist seals. I got the oval system in mine. Yeah, it's tight to get your hand through it, but it dives pretty nice and I can field-replace the seals and/or use a dry glove if the dive allows it (a rarity for commercial work).

* Protective YKK Zipper in front of the TiZip
* 2 pockets needed, cargo is best but the zipper pocket is ok. Make this style of zipper optional if cargo pockets are added.
* stretch a little more for donning (like the original 1st gen)
* overall better quality so things are not peeling off less than 100 dives in
* would be nice if it could dry as fast as a TLS but the material just won't allow this to happen

All good feedback! I agree that they could expand on this suit and make future generations of it better... Although I think that some of your points are complicated by the stretch material of the suit and are kinda the nature of a stretch trilam.

* I'd like to see them build in (as in sewn, welded and taped like the rest of the suit) cargo pockets for those that want them.

* Additional stretch would be wonderful, but not at the cost of delamination. This might be a tricky wire to walk, so to speak. No issues with delamination of mine so far.

* A clever idea for branding and patches needs to be reached. Perhaps computer printing logos and such like on today's wicking T-shirts? This would help prevent peeling and a "low quality" complaint.

* I find no problems with the outer material or dry times, and find it very durable and good-looking... But perhaps something can be found that is slightly more hydrophobic for quicker dry times. Finding a stretch, breathable, durable fabric for the outside of a trilam is already pretty amazing to me... Nothing like it... But yeah, it'd be great if the outer fabric was also hydrophobic.

For now, the only thing I really feel will improve my suit experience is to give the Fourth Element stuff a shot.

Of interest, I have a newfound appreciation for my BARE Sealtek hood. I think I'm going to buy another and trim it differently this time. Fourth Element hoods - touted as perhaps the best in the industry - couldn't hold a candle to the Sealtek. No taped seams and smaller than the rest of the industry by a full size, I couldn't find one in a 7 mil thickness without a bib (for a drysuit). If given one, I'll give it a shot, but the half-covering on the chin and lack of real sealed seams already hints that it's not going to be as warm as a BARE Sealtek. My biggest issue with the Sealtek is it's need to be trimmed, which seems substandard and prone to problems... But perhaps if I get it right I'll feel differently. There should be a video on the proper procedure.
 
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Have you looked at the Santi flex190 midlayer? It is thinner and supposed to be stretchier and I'm thinking about it. I got a new suit and the Bare SB midlayer is still a problem in it. Not as much as with my Trilam Tech Dry, (I can actually reach the valves but it's a big struggle). Maybe this is a sign that I should go to sidemount, but not willing to give up yet.
 
No I haven't. In fact, I wasn't even aware that SANTI made a stretch undergarment. This is the first I've heard about it.

I have a lot of respect for SANTI gear. Frankly, I don't know if a drysuit company that produces a higher quality, well-built product.

The stats look promising... And while they call it a spring/summer suit, they also say that it's good down to about 45 degrees on their website, and thats for a relaxed sport diver, not a working commercial guy. Sounds warm to me. :)

I'll order one today and check it out.

Sidemounting is an interesting approach to diving. Clearly it wouldn't work for a commercial application (we need the tanks out of the way and dive hookah or backmount), but it makes sense for sump and cave diving when you have the luxury of taking gear to the dive site modularly. The drawbacks I see are additonal failure points and complexity - and the fact that a lot of the gear - and the skill set - is unique and specialized, which sounds like an expensive and PITA option. Sidemounting also only works well if you can stay in trim - which is always an option for cave/quarry diving but not so much in wreck/commercial. Much of our diving is upside-down, for example.

I'm pleased to have seen my beloved GUE - originally a naysayer of sidemounting - accept it as a special circumstance. I agree that it's a style that doesn't work for all diving (a basic GUE philosophy) but can work best in some situations.

To me as a working diver, it's another skill set to have and would probably be a fun learning experience.
 
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My TLS 350 has never been dry once. Thanks for the revue................Mr. Snuggly.

Of course it hasn't. No serious diver seriously expects a DUI suit to actually be dry. You pay a God's ransom for them but they are literally not fit for purpose. Everyone knows this. No serious diver who dives in cold water would buy one. DUI suits are only good enough for warm water divers who don't want to dive wet.

In cold water, your life literally depends on your drysuit and when your life depends on it, you buy a Bare, an ND or a Whites... but if someone comes with a DUI suit... you make contingency plans. Seriously. You really do make contingency plans.....

R..
 
Lol! :)
 
Of course it hasn't. No serious diver seriously expects a DUI suit to actually be dry. You pay a God's ransom for them but they are literally not fit for purpose. Everyone knows this. No serious diver who dives in cold water would buy one. DUI suits are only good enough for warm water divers who don't want to dive wet.

In cold water, your life literally depends on your drysuit and when your life depends on it, you buy a Bare, an ND or a Whites... but if someone comes with a DUI suit... you make contingency plans. Seriously. You really do make contingency plans.....

R..
I feel bad now.............what is this "ND" you speak of?
 

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