The mid layer undergarments are good in my opinion. I'm pretty happy with it, even though the SB has a bad reputation due to the leaks I actually think they hit a home run with the undergarments. I dive in Monterey, CA and the water is about 50F year around. Unless I'm doing dives past 70 minutes they do a pretty decent job. With doubles I have no problems reaching my valves and manipulating them. I guess you mentioned they were bulky but compared to the DUI undergarments they are really thin. I also have a 4th element arctic and my SB Midlayer keeps me warmer.
Interesting that you mentioned that last one.
Yesterday Wonderful Wife and I took a 7-hour road trip to High Springs, FL to go check out the Fourth Element Arctic. I brought my SB, it's base and it's mid-layer with me to test.
Firstly, I LOVED the Fourth Element Xerotherm. Wow! It's virtually identical to the BARE SB base layer, but 1.5 times as thick (half again thicker). I'm not sure if this was because mine's been washed or not. It's better made and prettier, too, being all black, and has some nice touches like a subtle yet technical-looking screenprint on the back and some very unique and comfortable stirrups. The fit - especially the bottoms - seemed to be better, too, as I have found the BARE SB base layer to have an overly-long crotch. It's just as stretchy, too, and promises to be slightly warmer than the SB base layer. The best part is... They're the same price, and Fourth Element actually offers a value-priced combination package of a top, bottom, vest and socks. A home run. I'll definitely be ordering some of these.
The Arctic was pretty sweet, too, although a little different from the BARE mid-layer. It's perhaps half as thick as the BARE, and with half as much stretch. BARE's mid-layer is a single layer of "foamish" compression-resistant fleece, which makes it thicker and bulkier than the Arctic, but much stretchier. The Arctic takes a multilayer approach, with similar fleece on the inside and a fabric outside. The result appears to be thinner, perhaps not quite as warm (but it looks close), but with a lot less bulk and buoyancy, which are my main complaints with the BARE. In short, it's exactly what I was asking for in the post above.
I was particularly concerned that the Arctic wouldn't be stretchy enough to stretch with the SB suit... But I think that it is. No, it's not as stretchy as the BARE SB mid-layer, but I think it's stretchy enough for the drysuit. For reference, the SB drysuit stretches about like a 5 mil wetsuit - maybe even a 3 mil... Which appears to be about the same as the Arctic. The SB mid-layer stretches like a spandex dive skin.
I'll order one and see how it does.
I find it interesting that my complaint about the SB undergarments is that there appeared to be a very large jump from the warmth/thickness provided by the base layer versus the warmth/thickness provided by the mid-layer... And BARE says to wear them together! I found the jump to be really large just trading out one for the other... And Fourth Element seems to have bridged that gap much better. Their Xerotherm is warmer than the SB base and the Arctic is cooler than the SB mid.
Frankly, I'm just hoping to dump some of the lead. I hate really buoyant gear.
As a side note... Fourth Element is offering this year an "Arctic Expedition," which they say has additional thickness in key areas and some outer hydrophobic panels for shedding water, like if it's raining while donning and doffing. It'd be interesting to compare this to the warmth/thickness of the SB mid-layer, and I think would probably be a more accurate comparison. I suspect that the Arctic Expedition would be favored for the hydrophobic panels, but not be nearly as stretchy.
* move the shoulder dump valve back (this pertains to all Bare suits)
Yeah, I've noticed this too... It seems to hang up on my harness pretty easily when donning and doffing. I have to take more care than normal to ensure that I don't stress it. A minor annoyance, but I don't know why they did this.
* SiTech replaceable neck seals (I think this is not possible on the SB system?)
I think it was an option when I ordered mine. I didn't do the replaceable neck seal because I've seen it make donning and doffing a painful ordeal, and I've seen it cause harness fit issues along the collarbone. I did, however, opt for the replaceable wrist seals. I got the oval system in mine. Yeah, it's tight to get your hand through it, but it dives pretty nice and I can field-replace the seals and/or use a dry glove if the dive allows it (a rarity for commercial work).
* Protective YKK Zipper in front of the TiZip
* 2 pockets needed, cargo is best but the zipper pocket is ok. Make this style of zipper optional if cargo pockets are added.
* stretch a little more for donning (like the original 1st gen)
* overall better quality so things are not peeling off less than 100 dives in
* would be nice if it could dry as fast as a TLS but the material just won't allow this to happen
All good feedback! I agree that they could expand on this suit and make future generations of it better... Although I think that some of your points are complicated by the stretch material of the suit and are kinda the nature of a stretch trilam.
* I'd like to see them build in (as in sewn, welded and taped like the rest of the suit) cargo pockets for those that want them.
* Additional stretch would be wonderful, but not at the cost of delamination. This might be a tricky wire to walk, so to speak. No issues with delamination of mine so far.
* A clever idea for branding and patches needs to be reached. Perhaps computer printing logos and such like on today's wicking T-shirts? This would help prevent peeling and a "low quality" complaint.
* I find no problems with the outer material or dry times, and find it very durable and good-looking... But perhaps something can be found that is slightly more hydrophobic for quicker dry times. Finding a stretch, breathable, durable fabric for the outside of a trilam is already pretty amazing to me... Nothing like it... But yeah, it'd be great if the outer fabric was also hydrophobic.
For now, the only thing I really feel will improve my suit experience is to give the Fourth Element stuff a shot.
Of interest, I have a newfound appreciation for my BARE Sealtek hood. I think I'm going to buy another and trim it differently this time. Fourth Element hoods - touted as perhaps the best in the industry - couldn't hold a candle to the Sealtek. No taped seams and smaller than the rest of the industry by a full size, I couldn't find one in a 7 mil thickness without a bib (for a drysuit). If given one, I'll give it a shot, but the half-covering on the chin and lack of real sealed seams already hints that it's not going to be as warm as a BARE Sealtek. My biggest issue with the Sealtek is it's need to be trimmed, which seems substandard and prone to problems... But perhaps if I get it right I'll feel differently. There should be a video on the proper procedure.
