Primary Long Hose Length: 5' or 7'?

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If We are to be misquoted and demonized, then We apparently are being heathens. We are not member of your church. Nor yet are We heathens. Actually We may be heathens, since We no longer accept anyone's dogma, nor do We try to proseletyze our own beliefs, merely report from our own experience, and listen carefully to other experiences, while basically ignoring their beliefs. In diving, like in most things, beliefs are usually best ignored, and experiences best listened to.

We did not say 7' hoses were unmanageable. We did say they have to be managed. Yeah, verily, the difference is clear to those who are not under the spell of the 7' gods.

The 7' requires management: a tuck in a belt, under a knife, under a can light etc. When they come loose, or they are deployed they then have to be managed: retucked, relooped etc.. That's not necessarily a one hand job*
and there are lots of times in diving when requiring two hands to do something is a real concern.

Even when that hose is routed correctly, it can come loose from a tuck. Yeah verily the very acolyte who criticizeth Our experience has suffered this problem (" I HAVE had them come out of my waistband and need to be tucked back")

We have also, when still members of the 7' church, tried to anoint some divers with 7' hoses and found that even with a wrap around a deco cylinder, it was simply too long. This was the beginning of our dismissal of 7' dogma, in fact.

Plus there are plenty of people who simply endanger themselves with all that extra hose length. They fail to manage the 7' tuck/hook, and cannot work out how to reloop it, and/or get it hooked on things etc.

5' hoses requiring only a wrap, which never comes untucked, because it never needs a tuck. It never ever needs two hands to stow, though certainly there are beginners who need two. 5' hoses can even be dove as underarm regs in a pinch, something impossible most people. (7' hoses end up hooking on knees when dove underarm.)

We have dove both in many situations, and yeah verily We have found that 7' hose is too long even when hooked for some people, and it always need to be managed. There are times in diving when having to worry about managing Our hoses keeps us from managing more important things.

And unfortunately the acolyte has spoken an untruth (5' hoses only work well on small-framed people.) Since we left the church of the 7' hose, We have anointed various peoples, from the small (85#42 kg) to the large (260# 115kg), with 5' hoses and yeah verily none have suffered problems from the 5' hose.


* We said hand job. Heh heh.

I really doubt you know how to route a 7 foot hose and use it as a primary...I don't think you have ever had someone skilled in this area show you what you needed to know...and this idea of wrapping around a deco bottle ?? where does this come from? Not from DIR or GUE.....The very suggestion that you did this pretty much proves you don't have the requisite knowledge to "help" any divers try a 7 foot hose...or to make recommendations about 5 ft versus 7 foot either.

Visit Palm Beach and I will have some of my GUE buddies get you squared away :-)
 
I really doubt you know how to route a 7 foot hose and use it as a primary...I don't think you have ever had someone skilled in this area show you what you needed to know...and this idea of wrapping around a deco bottle ?? where does this come from? Not from DIR or GUE.....The very suggestion that you did this pretty much proves you don't have the requisite knowledge to "help" any divers try a 7 foot hose...or to make recommendations about 5 ft versus 7 foot either.

Visit Palm Beach and I will have some of my GUE buddies get you squared away :-)

Yeah verily WE have trodden on the evangelists toes. Thou hast reached the limits of thine knowledge and experience and thus thou hast come to call non believers ignorant, because We do not share your religion. Seriously when the only reason you can imagine someone having different knowledge and experience than you is because they are inexperienced or stoopid, then it is time to step back, and think about what you are sayin'.

The fact that you don't know about looping about deco bottles might well mean you started into this significantly later than We did. Or maybe just that you did it a different place than We did.There was a time and there are still places when that is the way to loop the long hose, because it guarantees the long hose is not trapped.

GUE went a different way because all they did was caves at first so, they carried can lights and they could leave deco bottles behind, they trail all the bottles to the left, etc. (and apparently they never did shore dives in big waves apparently where they found out why hoses that were too long were a problem, and trailing deco bottles can quite simply kill a diver, and they never did long hangs in strong currents where an unbalanced load that comes from trailing all the deco bottles could cause real problems, and they think the way to solve the lack of a can light is to put a knife there** etc, etc.)

But GUE is a real late comer to the party, so it is not a surprise that they do not have that much experience and knowledge. It's important to remember that. GUE is the over enthusiastic just certified OW divers who know everything, whose enthusiasm We enjoy but whose knowledge is based on second hand stuff someone else worked out. We can learn from them, as from anyone, but We can also recognize that their need to tell everyone else what to do is based their need to say things but does not mean We have to believe it.

Though they think We have to do what they say or else We are whatever the flavor of the month phrase is: strokes, muppets. We are sure there is some new clever phrase out there, and We will be glad to be labeled that as well, because what religious nuts say is fun, when it is not taken seriously.

If you think you need to question Our knowledge because We speak of things you do not believe, then there are two possible reasons. The one option you seem to be forgetting is that We might know things you don't, and We have might have experiences you don't.

GUE people seem to spout dogma, and when the dogma is questioned, they spout more dogma, and counter-examples are given, they call the other person ignorant and inexperienced. Hey, just what happened in this thread!

This can be a discussion about hose lengths (5' or 7'), with reasons why to use one or the other (what We are trying to do) or it can be a recitation of GUE dogma about 7' hoses. The problem is that We have seen some of the results of GUE dogma. We are not sure it working towards safety. Standardization, certainly. But safety is something that happens with or without the dogma. And unfortunately lack of safety is also something that happens with the dogma when people use hose lengths that actually cause them problems.

** This putting a knife, pocket, etc there to replace a can light is a great example of getting so far stuck in dogma that thought has ceased. It is about the least useful place to mount a knife and so the only reason to mount a knife there is to replace the can light that is not there. So now We are attaching extra gear to our rig to make up for the fact we are stuck in thinking that we need a 7' hose.

You are saying that 99% of the divers I see in Florida on charter boats don't have gear that can accept either a can light, a knife, a pocket, or anything else easy to route with?

Even a weight belt can work wonderfully well with a pocket or a knife scabbard on it....and sometimes when I am freediving, I put my can light on a weight belt.

As they say,
QED.
 
Yeah verily WE have trodden on the evangelists toes. Thou hast reached the limits of thine knowledge and experience and thus thou hast come to call non believers ignorant, because We do not share your religion. Seriously when the only reason you can imagine someone having different knowledge and experience than you is because they are inexperienced, then it is time to step back, and think about what you are sayin'.

The fact that you don't know about looping about deco bottles might well mean you started into this significantly later than We did. Or maybe just that you did it a different place than We did.There was a time and there are still places when that is the way to loop the long hose, because it guarantees the long hose is not trapped. GUE went a different way because all they did was caves at first so, they carried can lights and they could leave deco bottles behind, they trail all the bottles to the left, etc. (and apparently they never did shore dives in big waves apparently where they found out why hoses that were too long were a problem, and they never long hangs in strong currents where an unbalanced load that comes from trailing all the deco bottles could cause real problems, and they think the way to solve the lack of a can light is to put a knife there* etc, etc.) But GUE is a real late comer to the party, so it is not a surprise that they do not have that much experience and knowledge. It's important to remember that. GUE is the over enthusiastic just certified OW divers who know everything, whose enthusiasm we enjoy but whose knowledge is based on second hand stuff someone else worked out. We can learn from them, but we can also recognize that their need to tell everyone else what to do is based their need to say thingds but does not mean we have to believe it.

If you think you need to question Our knowledge because We speak of things you do not know about, then there are two possible reasons. The one option you seem to be forgetting is that We know things you don't, and We have experiences you don't.

GUE people seem to spout dogma, and when the dogma is questioned, they spout more dogma, and counter-examples are given, they call the other person ignorant and inexperienced. Hey, just what happened in this thread!

This can be a discussion about hose lengths (5' or 7'), with reasons why to use one or the other (what We are trying to do) or it can be a recitation of GUE dogma about 7' hoses. The problem is that We have seen some of the results of GUE dogma. We are not sure it working towards safety. Standardization, certainly. But safety is something that happens with or without the dogma. And unfortunately lack of safety is also something that happens with the dogma when people use hose lengths that actually cause them problems.

* This putting a knife, pocket, etc there to replace a can light is a great example of getting so far stuck in dogma that thought has ceased. It is about the least useful place to mount a knife and so the only reason to mount a knife there is to replace the can light that is not there. So now We are attaching extra gear to our rig to make up for the fact we are stuck in thinking that we need a 7' hose.


/
As they say,
QED.
Your lame religious approach fits your dogma well.
As to my background, it was not GUE, it was DIR with the original people that made DIR.....I had been NAUI and doing 140 foot plus dives for 20 years BEFORE I began DIR with George and Bill in the early 90's....Back then, I was highly experienced and had been mentored by great divers, but the DIR ideas George had were powerful--and we had dives that were on the borderline of possible, and I saw DIR as the most practical way to attempt them....DIR made me a better diver--but I had far more background than most instructors before I even met George Irvine.

As to currents and surf zones, ours can be big....it's kind of hard to imagine how you don't know that....in any event, I would love to see how you would fare on just a medium challenge, lot less a rough day.

You don't understand the WHY's , and you don't know what you don't know.
Frankly, you are embarrassing yourself. I'm serious about being willing to help you though, if you would take the initiative to travel.

---------- Post added June 27th, 2013 at 09:06 PM ----------



** This putting a knife, pocket, etc there to replace a can light is a great example of getting so far stuck in dogma that thought has ceased. It is about the least useful place to mount a knife and so the only reason to mount a knife there is to replace the can light that is not there. So now We are attaching extra gear to our rig to make up for the fact we are stuck in thinking that we need a 7' hose.



As they say,
QED.

On ocean dives you SHOULD HAVE a knife....it works well in the posiiton on a belt, both for the routing and for the access.
Most divers need a pocket. It needs to be out of the primary flow of water to keep the diver slick and hydrodynamic. The pockets we use on a waiste belt are perfect for this...they can hold the smb and spool you may need at the end of a dive, or any number of other small but essential elements you may need on some dives--and of course, they route well also.

If you are trying to be as DIR as possible, the can light is awesome for signaling your buddy when you instantly want their attention--and with the Goodman handle, the light is always out of your way, but instantly available when needed. We try NOT to force people to buy every piece of gear we think is ideal for DIR diving.....some can't afford a thousand dollar or more can light as they get into DIR gear.....so the knife or pocket allows gradual adoption of a much smarter DIR gear configurations , than the gear configs espoused by the dogmatic detractors of DIR ...
 
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Yeah but We taught Jacques Cousteau to dive. When he was having trouble making the first Aqualung, it was Our idea to use a carburetor. We had several thousand dives before scuba gear was even invented.

Really, that's what you take from that? Not at all engaging the ideas, but just playing the dozens?

Where in your post is there anything about hose length, and why one would be preferred over the other?

We get it, you think everyone should only dive a 7', should do whatever gear mods necessary to allow it, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is stoopid and inexperienced. You have now stated that several times with no additional expansion of why.

We consider that the very definition of being dogmatically attached to gear choices, but you don't. Fine. Your attitude fits right in with the GUE crowd. And that's fine, but this thread is about hose length 5' or 7'.

We started with the simple statement that a 7' hose requires management, but a 5' does not. They route the same.

We added the additional info that a 5' is more flexible in that because it does not require management there are no special gear requirements to using one.

We added the additional info that the fact that a 5' can be managed one handed by pretty much any diver, and a 7 footer cannot, and requires some experience to handle it, and may require two hands to stow it. Imagine an OOA situation in heavy surf when the donor gets their long hose reg back and what has to be done to stow it.

We noted that a five footer (with a swivel) can be used as an underarm reg in a pinch, where as a 7' will tangle on most divers legs used that way.

And your response is We don't know the WHYs, and playing the dozens.

OK.
 
If you intend to go on to train in penetrations, either of wrecks or caves, using the setup you will use there makes some sense, in that you will gain facility with it in open water before you need to use it in more challenging surroundings. If you have no intention of doing either, you can choose what you think works and is comfortable for you.

Exactly. I never said that you were mindless. ;)
 
Beano, I don't think anybody is really impressed with, or enjoying the pseudoBiblical thing you're doing.

If you think DIR is only enthusiastic newbies who don't understand how hanging in current can affect your choice of bottle distribution, you haven't watched the Atlanta video. Yes, a lot of the folks who proselytize energetically here are relatively new to the system, and sometimes to diving altogether. But there are a lot of much quieter and much more active and MUCH more experienced folks quietly doing fairly challenging dives using the system. (BTW, putting two bottles on your left doesn't affect you at all, even in current; beyond two, the bottles go on a leash which leaves them behind you, which doesn't unbalance you, either. If you are diving more than two bottles, it's recommended to have a scooter to deal with the drag.)

This all started with a question about hose lengths. I took exception to your statement that a long hose which was not caught under something could come loose without the diver noticing, and cause a great deal of trouble. My experience has been that, when it comes loose (and sometimes it will) you DO notice it, and control it before it causes issues. But many, many threads have shown that the diving population you deal with is not the one I do. Perhaps putting people who run out of gas routinely and violently mug strangers for their regulators into long hoses would not be a good strategy. Thank goodness, I have no idea.
 
^^^^snap! ,)
 
Get a 7', even without a canister/knife/pouch you just tuck it under the waist strap and pull it a bit to the right. Routes exactly like with a canister and will stay there if the strap is tightened. And it's easily returned to its position. 5' can work but I find the 7' tucked under the strap cleaner more adaptable to different body types. And if you ever need that additional 2' for some reason you'll have it....

And who still dives with stages on the right side?
 
And who still dives with stages on the right side?

People who do surf entries with two deco/stage bottles, for one. Lots and lots and lots of other people as well. Sidemounters too, but that's different.

Getting tied to one way of doing anything does tie you to doing one way of doing things.
 
People who do surf entries with two deco/stage bottles, for one. Lots and lots and lots of other people as well. Sidemounters too, but that's different.

Getting tied to one way of doing anything does tie you to doing one way of doing things.

Sidemount has a different hose routing that accommodates bottles on the right. No problems with that.

For backmount use your team and a leash to solve that issue, clipping bottles to the right is a poor substitute.
 

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