Primary donate in UK ice-cold water

[L2m]

I'm recently preparing for my next GUE Tech 1 course but also have joined a new local BSAC club as part of my plan to get into a local diving community.

I notice that BSAC does not really officially sponsor the "primary donate" techniques - and after reading a few of their arguments, I start to make sense of it: primary donate involves removal and replacement of a "flowing" regulator, which increases its risk to freeflow and regulator freezing especially in ice-cold water.

However, I believe everyone has a clear and good reason (especially in this sub-forum here) why they use primary donate + a long hose and stop using an octopus. There have been numerous occasions in the past where I saw a octo diver cannot find their octos when needed, because they have been accidentally taken out of the stowage position by currents/entanglement/themselves when blowing an open-ended dSMB, and developed this into a panick.

I just did a sport diver pool training with the local club, in jacket and secondary-donate octopus, and I saw other students taking at least 10 seconds to resume breathing from the secondary octo because of the various reasons their buddies' octos were either displaced or got stuck in the jacket that they could not remove without excessive force. It should have taken me 10 seconds to pull out the stuck octo hose from my buddy, whereas even two months before taking my first Fundies class my buddy and I could do a primary donate drill and resume breathing within 2 seconds maximum.

This question is really targeting those who've been diving extensively in the UK or other similarly cold places - do you think regulator freeflowing is a big and bad issue? And do you think there's a reason to NOT use primary donate as stated above?

P.S.: I'm now using a set of diaphram regs with freezing kits, which are supposed to reduce the risk of a freeflowing. However, I do have a set of piston regulators that I might use from time to time, despite the last time I used it at the sheering cold 5 degrees celsius it just works as normal.

 

[inquis]

primary donate involves removal and replacement of a "flowing" regulator, which increases its risk to freeflow and regulator freezing especially in ice-cold water.

I'm struggling to understand why it's flowing after removing it from your mouth.

 

[Edward3c]

You will get a lot of advice here on only do primary dinate.

The BSAC position is you can dive whatever configeration you like. However, during training, up to and including Sports diver you are required to use a secondary take/donate configeration.

When diving for fun, to stay within BSAC's liability insurance requirement for member to member cover read and follow the guidance on the BSAC Alternative Supply (AS) Policy.. In particular read the FAQ section.

 

[Rich1280]

BSAC teach secondary take, and have it consistently through all classes. We often teach it as making yourself available for the buddy to take the reg that is safely stowed on the chest area without impeding the (make like a starfish!). There is now a PD workshop that can be taught so people can use PD as well, but the consistency in training is secondary take.

I've never been sure how the brief removal and replacement of a working secondary will increase the risk of freezing beyond it doing it in use. My understanding is the gas expansion is the cooling element, so actually breathing it would be the trigger to cause a second to free flow, so the risk is to the person breathing the "new" reg, so the buddy on secondary take, and the donor on primary donate. A first stage free flow is by extra gas through it expanding, so it doesn't matter who's on which reg, its the firs stage gas flow that will cause it. If someone has a better explanation I'd love to hear it. On balance, a concerned diver heading to a buddy for a gas share probably has less reserve to cope with a free flowing regulator in my opinion than someone scooping their necklaced secondary and being able to back off a distance on a long hose.

Either way, I've dived a good amount in 4deg C water in Scotland in February and neither procedures have actually failed when I had to do them. Get a reg rated to EN250A, with the A for the secondary stage testing as well, and you'll be fine. I think this was potentially a problem with very old regs, or possibly if you are in sub zero conditions like Scandinavia? For 98+% UK diving I don't think its a concern. I use piston regs all year round and never found a problem.

Rich

 

[Vicko]

I'm struggling to understand why it's flowing after removing it from your mouth.

Most overtuned or badly maintained regs will start to free flow if you create a small pressure differential by swishing it around or turning the mouthpiece up.
Theoretically if it causes a freeflow the freeflow might cause the first stage to ice up preventing you from stopping the free flow.

That said, the exact same thing could happen to a secondary.

 

[Wibble]

BSAC were late to the party on primary donate which most technical agencies have adopted.

Primary donate, using the long hose, means there's an easily accessible necklaced secondary regulator in situ just under your chin for yourself to breathe should there be an issue with the primary, such as the mouthpiece falling off, it being knocked out of your mouth, or some other diver's taken it.

BSAC, AFAIAA, have their "octopus" on the diver's left side making it harder for the diver to use for themself as it's the wrong way up (PADI et al route the octopus from the RHS). The OOG (out of gas) receiving diver will need to find the secondary regulator on the donor diver and grab it, meaning that the donating diver needs to turn vertical (starfish) to expose the regulator under them to the OOG diver...
Or sod that, just grab and use the one from their mouth anyway.

Primary donate means the donor will actively help the OOG diver, pushing the regulator into their face. That regulator works as the donor was breathing from it. That regulator has the right gas for that depth too, even when using deco gas -- it's the same procedure: give the OOG diver the reg you're breathing. The 2m/7ft longhose alows you to separate yourselves once donated or on a stop so you can Keep Calm And Carry On. The longhose also keeps that same configuration for singles, twinsets and sidemount. Most of all, the primary donate becomes second nature thus not panic inducing through lack of practice (every dive you switch to the neckalced regulator, take a breath or two and switch back).

For the cold water question: donating the primary means it's held level when removed and pushed into the OOG diver's mouth, so shouldn't freeflow.

 

[crofrog]

This question is really targeting those who've been diving extensively in the UK or other similarly cold places - do you think regulator freeflowing is a big and bad issue? And do you think there's a reason to NOT use primary donate as stated above?

I dive year round locally including water down into the upper 30s (4c) with the average being around 42f (5.5c) my wife and I spent hours floating around doing s-drills with very hotly tuned G260s you'd get the occasional free flow if you pull the reg out of your mouth while inhaling, or if the goodman handle bumped the purge button on the necklace when switching back to your long hose.

That being said we did 100s of s-drills and had a handful of free flows, that were all quickly stopped by just putting the reg in your mouth or briefly covering the mouth piece.

This was on both piston H75d and Mk17 first stages, running the halcyon halo first stages it was never an issue, they also don't breath quiet as well the G260s. If you tuned the G260s down just a bit it also wasn't an issue.

 

[BoltSnap]

I do have a set of piston regulators that I might use from time to time, despite the last time I used it at the sheering cold 5 degrees celsius it just works as normal.

Don't believe the BS about piston regs being inferior to diaphragm regs in cold water. It is just that, BS piled high and deep.

 

[grf88]

I use primary donate and long hose for my diving which is primarily in The Great Lakes and Newfoundland and it has never been an issue. One other thing I do is use two first stages, either with doubles, H-valve or sidemount which reduces the stress on the first stages when two people are breathing from the rig.

 

[Imla]

Been diving Primary Donate in scandinavia and the Oslo fjord (where every winter has sub-zero water temp) for the pas 10+ years. NO issues with freeflow. Even when practising gas donation. I have not heard reports of this happening either. I HAVE however heard reports of non-functioning back-ups "padi style".