Primary and secondary malfunction on same dive. Should LDS be held responsible?

[Se7en]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


It wouldn't prevent me from diving with you. For a price. After you signed the waiver and demonstrated some basic skills that were entirely lacking on the dive you described.

Divers advance by obtaining proper training and by mentoring.

Hypocrisy at it's finest. First you say that you'd only dive with RavenC after she signs a waiver and pays you.

Then you tell her the only way she can advance is with some mentoring. Which you are patently adverse to giving. (Mentoring DOES NOT involve being paid)

So how are new divers supposed to progress?

I think you are being a bit harsh here - what happened was some new divers, including RavenC, had a dive where some stuff went wrong. In general they handled it OK, but RavenC at least realises that it could have been handled a whole heap better, and that her training was probably a bit lacking.

This is a good thing. Three relative newcomers from minimal training have done a couple of pretty simple dives and learnt something from them. Perhaps if RavenC had been diving with a more experienced mentor, the problem with the regs would have been less stressful - but as it was she handled it OK with the knowledge she had.

Now the downside.
RavenC - either you have forgotten some of your OW training, or your instructor was negligent.
You should know that you can disconnect the low pressure hose to your BC without problems. In fact, you should have it drilled into you that this is the first step to take if your inflator starts freeflowing and inflating your BC. Anyone who does not instinctively do this has no business being underwater - an uncontrolled ascent caused by a stuck inflator is about the third worst thing that can hapen to you on OC scuba.

You should also know how to breath from a free flowing reg by having it half out of your mouth, and been able to adapt this to breathing from your primary second stage - but given the choice I'd prefer to do as you did and breath of my buddies alternate for the ascent.

A suggestion for instructing buddies on which air source to take in an OOA: I always tell buddies that if they are out of air they should take the reg from my mouth - for all the usual reasons. However, I always make note of where and how their alternate is secured and would take this if required - snatching their primary may be a bit much for a stressed new diver. However, what I find is that divers will thing about this, and will often start offering their primary on an OOA drill of their own accord. So instead of telling them to do something, you have let them see a better way, and choose it of their own accord.

On the regs issue - get someone with a clue to show you how to dismantle and reassemble 2nd stages properly. They are pretty simple things, and even being able to pull the cover off a reg and check the diaphram would perhaps have saved you from this problem. Buy your own regs, and get shown how they work - makes it more likely that they will be in good nick, and makes you much more comfortable with them.

RavenC - there are a lot of reasonably experienced divers around who are quite happy to do some diving with relative newbies, and provide a bit of mentoring. Not everyone has the same attitude as Northeastwrecks. But be a little mindful that being a mentor can be a bit more stressful than diving with a peer, so sometimes they will want to chill out without worrying about you. Exactly the same as you were happy to lead some rank beginners on a couple of dives, but would be more relaxed with more experienced buddies. It cuts all ways.

Se7en

 

[annie]

RavenC

I think you dealt well with what happened, though I wouldn't have worried so much about the boat. After all it was an OOA situation, they don't expect you to navigate back to the boat u/w. You have to keep calm even on the surface right up until everyone is safe on board no matter if you think you've messed up. Worrying about what others think can lead to hasty/bad decisions.

Just a comment about the pre dive conversation and your buddies. I can share with you what I've learnt from being buddied up with people I don't know. I love helping new divers but I hate constant new buddies because it's unpredictable. You get all sorts - and they don't tell you this essential information, you have to ask
- how many dives
- when were they
- have you dived these conditions before

>>I also learned how important it was for me to talk with my “new” buddies before the dive like I did.<<

I don't think you talked to them enough because

>>It wasn’t until after the diving that I found out that one of my “buddies” was newly certified and this was his second open water dive. <<

You HAVE to know this before even agreeing to buddy with them (I won't buddy with a newbie if trying out new suit/gear). Then if you do buddy with them, you have to know what to expect underwater. And then you have to be prepared to help them if they mess up.

>>I don't supervise any divers. I am not qualified. I have no problem helping new divers if I can.<<

I guess it's up to you to decide whether you are qualified / able to supervise / help them (all the same to me). But you can't even make these decisions in advance *if you don't know who you're getting in the water with.*

I know you regularly dive with your buddy . . .but if you end up with new buddies again I suggest you find out in advance if buddying with them also means supervising them and decide what kind of dive you want to pay for. Other customers needing to be supervised is not your problem.

 

[diverbrian]

I don't really have a regular buddy. I have a two or three people that I normally dive with based on what type of diving I am doing, but not one regular dive buddy. This has led me into RavenC's situation early in my "diving career." It also summed up the reason that I am completing my DiveCon, LOL. I get buddied up with whoever is left at the shop fun dives. Sometimes they are good divers, sometimes they leave something to be desired. When I first started diving, my "dive buddy" was always the divemaster/ instructor that the shop provided. That changed quickly though, and I had to adapt.

My new "dive buddies" always get the same questions back and forth on experience?, what are you comfortable with?, how were you trained to do certain emergency procedures? so that I know what page everybody is on if trouble occurs. I have no problem taking out "new fish", but I won't take them deep or into any conditions that I feel they aren't ready for. I cover that in our predive "talk."

I have been diving my own gear since day one, so tearing off the covers and looking at diaphrams is not something that I have to do. The only rental gear that I have used was a drysuit while I was waiting for mine to come in and for my drysuit class.

It sounded like you handled this fairly well except the things that have been pointed out. The evidence is that everyone is around to talk about it. Take the ideas for improvement, (as will I from every one of these that I read), and dive some more.

Have fun!

 

[MikeFerrara]

RavenC once bubbled...



We did practice breathing off a free flowing reg in OW training but I had not had one breath in water like that. I will try your suggestion. I am getting Nitrox certified next month so I am sure that will be a part of the class.

That skill probably won't be tought in a nitrox class. I teach breathing through broken regs as part of the "Advanced Nitrox" class. The class is what most would consider an entry level tech class.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Se7en once bubbled...


Hypocrisy at it's finest. First you say that you'd only dive with RavenC after she signs a waiver and pays you.

Then you tell her the only way she can advance is with some mentoring. Which you are patently adverse to giving. (Mentoring DOES NOT involve being paid)

So how are new divers supposed to progress?

There's nothing hypocritical about it.

I am more than happy to mentor people with whom I'm friendly. In fact, I do mentor a couple of buddies with whom I dive on a regular basis. We dive together because we enjoy it. I'm more experienced, so I try to pass on something. The same way that my more experienced buddies pass on things to me.

However, that's a far cry from being told by an instructor or by a boat crew that I'm going to be buddied with a couple of divers that I've never met. Or when I get a call from someone who wants to dive under some level of supervision.

In the first situation, I've been asked to sacrifice my pleasure dive in order to work with another diver. If I'm going to work, I'm going to get paid. After all, I need to cover that insurance.

In the second situation, I've been asked to dive with someone specifically because I'm more experienced than the diver. Once again, I see nothing wrong with charging for my time, particularly since I'd probably not choose to dive on an entry level site if I weren't working. Moreover, it costs me time and money to execute the dive.

The divers did an reasonably good job of coping with the problems. However, these are problems that never should have arisen and that would not have arisen if they had engaged in proper planning. This planning extends to gear selection and training.

RavenC is not certainly not responsible for selecting the dive site. The instructor bears responsibility for that and for putting her in the difficult position of choosing between refusing to dive with the newbies or being put in a bad situation.

She is, however, responsible for agreeing to buddy with the divers and for taking responsibility for them.

 

[MikeS]

Raven,

Based on your story I think that you were lucky. You were diving with buddies that were diving well beyond their training and experience. As a result, you took on the role of an instructor. As far as I know, the standards for all certification agencies require an instructor on a dive that exceeds the certification level of a diver; as in your story going below 60 feet with an OW diver.

Then despite the situation you decided to go fishing. This does not seem a wise decision to me based on your description of your buddy, as it was bound to result in task loading.

The good news is, you didn’t panic and handled the situation well, you dodged the bullet this time.

Lessons Learned?
Don’t dive beyond your training and experience or dive with others that are.
Dive equipment can and will fail.
Learn how your equipment operates including failure modes.
If you stay calm and think, you can safely work through equipment failures.

Mike

 

[Raven C]

I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions and let you know that all are appreciated.

There are lots of things that I have learned in this. I knew from my experience with the instructor and the program that I was certified under that there was definitely more for me to learn. That is why I have pursued more training. Also, I consistently dive with the same buddy. I have never had to question levels of training and say to a person I refuse to dive with you because… I do know of a particular person that I have been on group trips with that I don’t care to dive with or buddy with so I just don’t.

The situation with going on a dive trip and being buddied with someone that I never dove with was completely new to me. I was buddied with “Buddy 1” and we had a good bit of discussion on skill level and I really didn’t have a problem with him. It was “Buddy 2” that was grouped with us just before we entered the water and I was told that he was OW certified and working toward his AOW. One lesson that I didn’t realize I would learn in this whole thing was the level of questioning of the “prospective” buddy’s skills and declining a dive with someone. I never really thought to tell the dive master I won’t dive with this person. Another thing I didn’t think about was keeping the fish until Mike mentioned it. I am glad that DNR said it was ok. (shuh)

I know I need more training, I am still a new diver, and when my 100+ dives become 200+ and more there will still be skills for me to learn. There will be divers for me to learn from and different perspectives of experience that I can learn from. There are times when someone else can point out to a better method that I may not have considered or been taught. I know that my way is not always best and isn’t necessarily good for another.

If that ever happens again, I will definitely try to breath that primary. I will ditch the dive not caring about the anchor line. I will inflate my safety sausage at the surface and let the boat pick me up and not worry. I will not kick myself because of a better way. I will just figure out what that is/was and learn something new. I will be glad I kept my cool about me and that everyone made it out fine. I will still ask questions to learn and I will be prepared that there is someone who will criticize unconstructively the way I handled the situation because they feel they are a better diver than I and I will understand that somewhere in the criticism there is information that I can use and discard the rest. I will take all the constructive criticism and use it to improve my diving skills. I hope to earn the respect through my diving education, experience and skill demonstration that others will want to dive with me and maybe I can help them learn someday.

As for the OW divers going beyond their limits their instructor had planned to take them to the Govenor which was well over the limits and the dive we ended up on was, at the maximum depth where we were, 63 feet. I was well within my diving depth limits as an AOW diver.

Honestly, I didn't plan to go fishing and never thought I would actually catch that fish but since I did, I kept it. My grandfather appreciated it. : ) That will never happen again.

I was glad that at no point did I ever "loose it". I was calm. That doesn't mean as I admitted that I wasn't disappointed with my own actions of letting go of the line. But as I mentioned above, Several here have helped me realize that in the future, if that ever happens again, I won't let it bother me if the boat has to come get me.

Thanks again to everyone for answering my questions and offering assistance for learning. R

PS It has been suggested to me that I should offer to buy Northeastwreaks a puppy. I don't know if you're up for a puppy but will this do? :dawg:

R

 

[canuckdiver]

RavenC once bubbled...
I will still ask questions to learn and I will be prepared that there is someone who will criticize unconstructively the way I handled the situation because they feel they are a better diver than I and I will understand that somewhere in the criticism there is information that I can use and discard the rest.

Well Raven,

I think that the ones that were offering up unconstructive comments firstly, don't know you, and secondly, don't have any constructive comments because they wouldn't be able to handle the situation them self. Anybody who cuts somebody else up with derogatory comments without offering a better way of doing things is only belittling themselves as far as I am concerned, and probably just covering for their own inadaquicies (LOL, mine is spelling!).

I think you did better in this situation than I would expect from even an experienced diver. You had a compound equipment failure, and coped with it, rather than bolting for the surface. No-one got hurt, and all turned out well.

Congratulations on being able to keep your head under pressure, it is a rare quality

 

[Northeastwrecks]

RavenC once bubbled...
PS It has been suggested to me that I should offer to buy Northeastwreaks a puppy. I don't know if you're up for a puppy but will this do? :dawg:

R

Thanks for the offer. Sadly, my cats would probably lose it.

RavenC, I'll give credit where it is due. You did well to handle the problems. Incidentally, so long as the secondary was working, I probably would have gathered the group and headed back to the line, particularly since it sounds as if you didn't have a bag and a jump spool. Regardless, your responses were fine.

My criticism was directed to the pre-dive because that's where the problems arose and will continue to arise unless you change the manner in which you plan your dives.

I was hard on you for a reason. Specifically, as someone else said, you dodged a bullet. Consider how you would have felt if one of your newbies, or you, got hurt.

Of course, the instructor had little business putting you guys in that situation. However, that's another issue.

 

[Raven C]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...


Thanks for the offer. Sadly, my cats would probably lose it.

RavenC, I'll give credit where it is due. You did well to handle the problems. Incidentally, so long as the secondary was working, I probably would have gathered the group and headed back to the line, particularly since it sounds as if you didn't have a bag and a jump spool. Regardless, your responses were fine.

My criticism was directed to the pre-dive because that's where the problems arose and will continue to arise unless you change the manner in which you plan your dives.

I was hard on you for a reason. Specifically, as someone else said, you dodged a bullet. Consider how you would have felt if one of your newbies, or you, got hurt.

Of course, the instructor had little business putting you guys in that situation. However, that's another issue.

NeW, I don't think anyone was as hard on me over this as I was. I expect better than the best from myself and I felt that I could have handled it differently. However, being hard on one is not so bad when good information and education accompanies it. I value the knowledge that gathers here on the board. I thank you for your recent respectful post. Maybe we have more in common that the fact the we enjoy diving and met here on the board; I'm a cat lover too. I had equipment problems, some serious equipment problems, but I never felt that I "dodged a bullet." I could have shared air with a buddy to the surface if I had too but I didn't have too. The secondary was working initially.

I did learn that I should not wait for the availibity of a training class to come around, I must seek it out. I will know a regulator intimately right away, I can promise that. I will also check into a spare air source for my diving. I should have questioned if there was spare air on the line too like I usually do, but this time I didn't.

There have been some really good points made here.

Canuckdiver,

:huggy: I told you when I first came to the board that I have great respect for ice divers. BUrrr. I think you know me well enough to know when I say (XO) thanks I sincerely mean it. R