Primary and secondary malfunction on same dive. Should LDS be held responsible?

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Raven C

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Sunday’s dive.

I woke up at 6 wishing I could sleep some more. I was exhausted from the day before and the late drive to Myrtle Beach. As I began to brush my teeth I stood there thinking. “What are you thinking girl, you have to be out of your mind.” I was tired and I wanted to dive as much as I wanted to snuggle back into those sheets. I said to myself. “You can sleep on the boat on the way to the site.” We were going to dive The “Governor” - a 200 foot Civil War paddle wheeler lies in 80 feet of water 22 miles off the coast. The site offers everything from brass artifacts to Southern stingrays and a multitude of other marine life.

When I got to the dive shop Scuba Express, Myrell’s Inlet, SC, (BTW they were great to dive with) I did my paperwork and we headed over to the docks. Everyone loaded their gear on board and before leaving, the boat captain informed us that for some reason the visibility at the Governor was reported to be very poor and offered another location option. Angel's Ledge: This is a live-bottom reef ranging in depth from 60 feet to 110 feet. Known for the beautiful queen angels it attracts, it is also popular for spear fishing because of the abundance of grouper. The group decided to try the ledges for the opportunity to have better visibility and longer bottom times depended on where you dove. So off we went. Everyone settled in for the ride and I noticed that there was a bench approximately 4 feet long that was not occupied on the other side of the boat. I made my way over and laid down and rested for the ride. The ledges were about 18-20 miles off shore so I could try to nap on the way.

When we reached the site, we buddied up. There were three in my group because we had an odd number. We talked about the plan and I knew that these two had not been diving for long. It wasn’t until after the diving that I found out that one of my “buddies” was newly certified and this was his second open water dive. Saturday he had his first. This explained his behavior and reactions to what happened. You’ll understand that in a minute.

The first dive we started down the line and the water was thick with biology. This meant the dive was going to be poor viz. There were lots of moon jellies everywhere. As we began to descend, the water started to get colder around 20 ft. I looked back at the surface to see the rays of light shining down on me and then looked back toward the bottom to see the slate blue color of the water beneath me turn more blue-green. The water seemed thick, almost gelatin like between 20 and 40 feet. The jellies would come to check us out, all by accident of course. What a weird fate in life to drift almost aimlessly victim of every swish and sway of the water. They seem so helpless and yet they pack their own little punch. There were beautiful with purple, blue and pink neon colors coursing through them like chaser lights advertising the best bargain the beach has to offer. My buddy number 1 was new to diving (only a few months and working on AOW) but he new his stuff pretty well. Buddy 2 is the fresh meat newby.

We got to the bottom and everyone signaled “OK.” I motioned that we would move off to the right and I signal to buddy 1 you can lead. “We’ll follow you.” I looked back at buddy 2, on his knees stirring up the bottom and signaled, “You OK?” He signaled back, “OK” and I motioned “let’s swim.” I noticed the dive instructor was at the line where buddy 2 was. We began to swim off and buddy 1 was headed away from the ledge. I when over to him and motioned “this way, you follow me.” I looked back and buddy two was still on the line with the instructor. He stayed on the line almost the entire dive. I think he got scared. The dive instructor stayed with him for a little while and then took him to the surface. My buddy and I began to explore. The visibility was very poor there were huge grouper and ramora in the water but you couldn’t see them completely until you were right up on them. The angle fish there ranged from the size of a saucer to the size of a large dinner plate. There were tiny spider crabs, brown with white markings, and sea snails that were purple with yellow strips and spots on them everywhere and lots of starfish of all sizes. There were several sea urchins and lots of large cucumbers. The corals were very pretty, lots of oranges, reds, and yellow. I am a “show and tell” diver. LOL I like to point out all kinds of things. I explore all over. My buddy caught the image of a large shadow to the left of him and grabbed his light to point out that it was a shark. It wasn’t a nurse, I am not really sure what kind, it looked like it had black tips on it, maybe 4 -5 feet long. There was an Eagle ray gliding around. Some in the group were trying to capture sea life for the dive shop aquarium. I instantly thought of “Nemo” and the divers scene. With slurp guns and catch bags they collected small animals to take home with them. There were a couple guys spear fishing but they only caught two spade fish. The ledge wound its way around the bottom in and out and there was lots of activity all around. When I checked my psi, my buddy signaled that he had 1200 psi I motioned to turn and go back to the anchor line. I aligned my compass and headed back for the line. Once on the line we began to slowly ascend watching the depth and timing the ascent to make everything go smoothly. We did a deco stop to keep the dive plan in accordance with the most recent student training.

On the surface we reviewed our tables and we had an hour interval so we got a little water and a snack and rested while the others began to surface and join us. Everyone was boarding with their treasures. I myself had picked up a starfish that I though was dead. But, once on board I realized that it was moving, however slight the movement was, I was not prepared to take it with me if it was still moving so I placed him back into the ocean and wished him well hoping he would be happy wherever he landed. During the interval, we decided that the next dive we would go to the left instead of the right as we had just then. Both buddies asked me to navigate because buddy one said he didn’t think he could find his way back to the anchor line. I told the buddies to stay more to my side and not to be all over the place and asked them to stay off the bottom if they could and then we rested.

After the surface interval, we put on our gear and entered the water. Signaled “OK”, “Divers Down” and in my mind I was questioning should I have put on my second suit for more mil to be comfortable. I thought it more and more as I sank into the darker water and the thermal cline seemed to be much colder this time than the last. The water temp was about 68 degrees but once on the bottom and swimming around, I wasn’t cold at all. We got to the bottom and the gauge read 63 ft. I knew that my buddies did not have much time as they used almost twice as much air as I did on the first dive and they stated that they used a good bit of air usually. On the boat, I figured we had between 15 and 20 minutes on the bottom. That really sucks when I am used to having 45 minutes on regular hair at that depth. But you can only stay as long as the shortest buddy time - then you go. Right away there were large grouper everywhere. There seemed to be more large fish on this side of the ledge. As we swam along, I noticed one grouper very still near the bottom. I slowly approach and as I did, I put my hand out in front of me so I would not make any sudden moves to scare the fish off. When I was inches away, he started to slowly swim away and at that moment, I reached out and grabbed the fish by the tail. He tried to take off on me. My grin was so big that my mask began to leak a little. He was very strong so I grabbed on with my left hand. He tried to swim so I cradled him in my left arm and held him close to my body. I wasn’t really expecting to catch this fish but now that I had, I was quickly trying to decide - let him go or grill him up. I thought, this is a big fish and I caught it with my own two hands. No one would believe this story even if I had two witnesses so this one is going home with me. He was too big for my catch bag so I held on to his tail with my right hand and held him close to my body with my left. After a few minutes, Buddy 2 pulled out a large catch bag that was barely big enough for the fist to fit inside and we pushed it down in the bag and pulled the string to close the top. I looked at my watch and we were about 10 minutes into the dive so I signaled to them both to turn around and head back. I positioned my compass and we navigated back to the anchor line.

As I swam back holding my “catch” close to my body I took a breath and at the same time, my regulator broke. I had only the mouth piece in my mouth. I had a mouth of salt water and as I swept for my hose I couldn’t find the primary. All of this happened so fast and here I was with a mouth full of salt water. I turned to my “newly” certified buddies and when up to buddy one and signaled buddy breath. In the seconds that passed he first just looked at me. By this time I had my primary in my right hand and my mouthpiece on my left middle finger. I motioned for him to give me his primary. He took a big breath and handed me the primary. I immediately breathed out and purged the water out and as I took my first breath. He began to search for his secondary which was somewhere down around his side. I motioned for him to stop and as I gave him back his primary I placed my secondary in my mouth and began to use it. I am horizontal in the water and he is vertical. He has a standard short hose reg set and his training has told him buddy breath to the surface. So he starts up. He’s wearing a computer that’s beeping like crazy. I motion to him. “Stop. Go down.” He signals back “OK Down.” At the same time Buddy 2 is in a panic. He’s swimming up and I am trying to get him to calm down and get him to stay down with us. I turned upside down and motioned for them to follow. We got to the bottom and I am hovering signaling back and forth, “I am OK. Are you OK?” to each of them. Buddy 1 signals to see if I want to thumb the dive. I motioned “No, follow me.” I needed to get them back to the anchor line. As I swam back I checked on fish. He was still with me.

When we got back to the line, there was still 1300 psi in the lowest tank. My secondary was breathing a little wet. (Mind you, I don’t have all my own gear. The reg setup I had to rent this set from the local dive shop here in Beaufort because the gear configuration I have chosen is Hogarthian, and I am putting my gear together a little at a time and without all the pieces of the reg setup, the first and second stages, hoses/necklace, psi gauge, depth gauge, etc you can’t dive just part of it. You have to have all of it. So right now I have to rent a reg set which sucks. (After this weekend, I am springing for it all now. I need my own setup complete so I don’t have to go through this crap.) BTW, my BP & Wing dives like a dream. I chose a heavy STA for the additional weight I needed for saltwater diving. I may have to get a light STA for fresh water diving so I am not over weighted.

Anyway, we are back at the line and I am checking out my fish because he got a little beat up in that whole episode but I still have him. Since we have a little air, we are okay for our ascent. On the way up, my secondary begins to breathe more water than air. I began to cough and purge the water out. I know that as we rise I will be able to get more air into my lungs. But as we slowly rise to 20 feet the diaphragm sticks and I can only get water. Around 15ft we were supposed to do a deco stop but it is not really necessary so I really don’t plan to stay. But I have a console in my left hand the rope in my right and at this point no air. I took my secondary out of my mouth and tried to tap it in the palm of my left hand to clear it and I hear Buddy 2 inflate his BC and he zooms to the surface uncontrolled, only to say later, “I let all the air out of my BC but I was still pulled to the surface.” I had this happen to me once in very shallow water when I first dove a BP & Wing and after looking for answers I realized that I must have not emptied my wing completely with my dump. The problem here was the Buddy 2 didn’t know which button inflated and which deflated. Scary thought huh? Anyway, because visibility was so bad, Buddy 1 let go of the line also and came over to me and motioned “UP.” When I turned to grab the line, the line was no where in sight. In a few seconds, we had lost sight of the line. Since we were just on the line, and I had no air, I agreed to slowly go to the surface. I thought we would come up a little off the line but the current had gotten so bad on the surface that when we came up we were maybe 200 feet away from the boat. I really was surprised. I was so pissed at myself for letting go of the line. I felt like I put this new buddy at risk by letting go. When we surfaced we both thought we would be right near the boat because we had come up the line to 20 feet. How could I have been so stupid? I let a stupid OOA situation that I thought I had handled well get me off course. At this point we couldn’t go back down and navigate over to the boat because he was down to 800 psi, I still had 1400 but my secondary didn’t work. We signaled to the boat that we were “OK” and Buddy 2 was already on board. We began to swim toward the boat. At first we were making ground but all of a sudden, the waves and current began to pull us away from the boat and we were now about 300 ft out and we weren’t making any ground. My buddy began to tell me he was getting ready to drop his weight belt because it was too much when I noticed his BC wasn’t fully inflated. I immediately told him not to drop his weight belt but to “inflate your BC all the way.” The captain started the motor and came over and picked us up. I was very embarrassed. The captain and the dive master told me that yesterday the dive master simply lost the line and they had to go get him. But, that didn’t make me feel much better.

On the surface I kept kicking myself for letting go of the line. I was trying to decide if we could try to change octos on the surface. Have any of you tried to change out a setup on the surface? Will the BC stay inflated if you disconnect the pressure hose? I know you can inflate your wing and shut off the air, but will the air escape if you disconnect the hose? If it won’t will a standard BC work the same? If the BC or wing will stay inflated, then it could be possible to change out a reg and swap over to the take the one with the most air. Right? Then you could buddy breath it back under the water. Right? Anyone know the answers? I think this is something I want to explore. Man, I really thought that the OOA was handled well until the very end. I am glad we didn’t buddy breath to the surface from off the bottom when it happened. Who knows where we would have surfaced. Isn’t it funny how my PADI OW taught that method instead of calmly looking for the anchor line? I personally think that their method should be changed to consider deeper ocean diving. I am glad I had read other training methods because I feel like I was able to handle the situation better with some different skills other than the basic OW/AOW that I was taught in my PADI class.

This whole thing only solidified to me the reasons why TO dive a long hose and a necklace. With a long hose, it would have been easier to buddy breath. With a necklace it would have taken even less time to get the secondary. Heck I may not have buddy breathed at all.

I also learned how important it was for me to talk with my “new” buddies before the dive like I did. I remember telling them if they had an OOA, to donate the primary. “Just calmly, take a breath and donate your primary. You know it is working and you can give them air right away.” That was a valuable conversation. I prefer to donate my primary when giving air.

I boarded the boat and sat there checking everything out. I had 1200 psi in my tank and I didn’t have an air source. I checked out my primary to see if I could have somehow breathed off of it. Honestly, I didn’t try to at the time. I wish I had tried. I knew I had a secondary and I wasn’t worried. I didn’t even intend to buddy breath to the surface, which he expected. I just needed to get a clean breath of air and get my secondary. Maybe I could have used that primary somehow, that would have been my solution.

I had the dive master trainer on board look at the secondary and it was dry rotted
and the diaphragm was sticking. He told me to go back to the dive shop and have a talk with them.

Can anyone here answer the questions above? Have you tried to change out a reg like that? I know that sometimes when the air hasn’t been bled out you can’t even turn the value. That may have prevented the change all together.

I beat myself up pretty bad for letting go of that line and for not going back to it but I really didn’t think we were that far away from the boat. Instead of beating myself up anymore, I want to learn from this experience. I want to know more about my own personal gear. I have been asking for an equipment training class for months and no one has one. Apparently there isn’t enough interest to warrant the class. Maybe I will just have to get a book and teach myself.

I missed the fact that I was not with a buddy who I had been diving with. That buddy who knows my actions and I know his. The buddy that each of us knows how the other dives and what each other will do…all the signals down pat and the experience of diving and of diving with each other. I know I will not always dive with a “regular” buddy but I do want a “regular” buddy to dive with. Unless you have a “regular” buddy and know what it is like to be in sync with each other and then not have that with another buddy, you just won’t understand.

I want my buddy. My very own buddy. So I can hug him, and love him and pet him real nice George. Sorry just a joke. No, seriously, there’s nothing like having “YOUR” buddy to dive with. Is it to much to ask for? That “forever” buddy. The one you dive with always.

Well, if anyone has some answers to the questions I’ve asked, I sure would like to know them. Please don’t be mean though my ego is bruise enough. I must say I was proud of myself for not panicking; two malfunctioning regs on the same dive is a lot to deal with. I guess I should have been more scared than pissed off. Also, my Buddy 1 followed my lead very well. He did get a bit scared, you could see it. But, he kept it together until we got on the boat. Then he needed a little time by himself. I would dive with him again. Anytime.

As for the fish I caught, it was just over 30 inches long and it was heavy. I have no idea how much it weighed. I took some pictures so when I get them scanned in I will show you – THE ONE THAT DIDN’T GET AWAY. LOL I had it cleaned and packed on ice and sent it to my grandfather because he said, “Catch me some fish if you go fishing.” : )

I was so looking forward to diving. I had not been diving for weeks and then what an experience.

Dive safe. R
 
However, one thing i disagree with is telling your stranger buddy how to donate air to you. Problem is, they've been trained a certain way, and so they will hopefully instinctively give you whichever one they've been trained to give you. You might just confuse a newbie by changing their training. Losing the line is no big deal. Breathing comes first.
 
I can't answer your reg questions, but one thought did enter my mind when reading this. When the one buddy signaled to surface, you shouldn't have said no and swim back to the anchor line. I think that you should have just surfaced there and signaled the boat from where you surfaced. You could have even begun your ascent there while swimming towards the anchor line, so you were closer to it when you reached the surface. Up means up to me and my buddies, no questions asked. Just something to think about, I'm not trying to bruise your ego anymore. You know I love ya like a play cousin.

Also you probably could have breathed off your primary reg without the mouth piece.
 
Hi I think you did great, especially considering the inexperienced buddies that you had.
I do think that you did the right thing going back to the line, your buddies would undoubtably had difficulty making a free controlled ascent.

It would have been nice to stay on the line but under the circumstances no big deal. Going back down from the surface would not have been wise, at that point you wer much better off letting them pick you up.

Great idea to get your own reg set in the DIR setup. also keep in mind that a computer on one wrist and compass on the other beats holding onto a console any day. Doesn't cost anymore if you go that way right off.

The dive shop should at a minimum refund all of your rental cost.

You should have been able to breathe from your primary without the mouth piece no problem.

If you do a lot of this type of diving an inflatable surface maker might be a good investment as well.

Good luck and have fun.
Gary
 
Wendy, I wasn't clear. My buddy 1 signaled and asked if I wanted to go up that's why I told him no. I was fine with staying to go to the line as long as I could breath off my secondary.

Jvihe, we had discussed air sharing on the boat before we got into the water. When I signaled share air. He hesitated a little until I showed him my reg and signaled for his primary. Later he told me he thought it was a practice until he saw my reg. As for buddy two, I don't think he would have been of any help.


Mcrae, thank you for the complement. On the boat I looked over the primary and tried to breath from it. The mouth piece came off and the place where it attaches, but there was still a small piece sticking out that I think I could probably have been able to place in my mouth and hold with my hand in order to breath from the primary. But, honestly, I thought about the secondary first. I learned a lot from this experience. One thing is to try a few options. I had never had a situation like this before. I have been with a diver who has had a few OOA where he ran out of air and had to share air but nothing like this, to me. I am purchasing a "DIR" style reg set. I chose a Mk 16/S550 and R380 from ScubaPro. I have my psi gauge. It too is ScubaPro. I haven't purchased the computer. (I chose a Suunto Mos.) I need it for guages. I don't like the console. Also, the buddy I always dove with had a sausage so he said we'll use mine and I never bought one. Now, I want my own. I need my own. R
 
I'm not clear on what your regulator question was asking. If you were asking if you can take a second stage off the hose and replace it with another...the answer is that you must shut your valve off or you will loose all your air in a hurry because the second stage is the valve and the hose is just a hose. If you do this you will likely flood the first stage which isn't good but how bad depends on the first stage you're using. You won't be able to do this unless the hose is only hand tight or you have a wrench with you. it's probably best to stick to conventional methods.

You can however breath from a regulator second stage that is missing or has a faulty exhaust diaghram by simply deressing the purge when you take a breath. The same procedure will work with a second stage that has a leaky "actuator" diaghram.

I'm not familiar with the game laws there but other than harvesting a fish that was in season by legal means? (catching by hand?) I was surprised to hear that so much touching and colle ting of sea life went on.

We have different signals for head for home and end the dive now in the quickest possible way. Sometimes it can be a bad idea to surface away from the boat unless there isn't any other way. In those situations it might be a good idea to talk about it before the dive. Wendy is right in that the end the dive signal should be respected. Wendy is a cave diver and in cave diving the thumb up means lets get out of here now. The divers have a good deal of training and there isn't any way to end the dive without going back to the entrance. We use a turn signal for "Lets head back (no further penetration) but there isn't a problem and sight seeing on the way back is ok". The thumbs up for us means it's over and the sooner the better. In OW, I can see how the action to take and what signal to use when should be agreed on before the dive.
 
RavenC,

Why have you decided to get a computer rather than a bottom timer?
 
Honestly, I am not opposed to learning more about bottom times.

The computer on the other hand had several options that I was considering. These are not in order of priority but, I am dyslexic so visual gauges have to be very legible and the sounds were a consideration for me. I don't dive a computer now, I dive with guages and a watch and my navigation methods with a compass are customise a bit. Also, I thought having a dive profile that I could download would help me learn and improve my diving skills. I am sure I could learn from your experience with a bottom timer if you are willing to share. R
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I'm not clear on what your regulator question was asking.

You can however breath from a regulator second stage that is missing or has a faulty exhaust diaghram by simply deressing the purge when you take a breath. The same procedure will work with a second stage that has a leaky "actuator" diaghram.

I'm not familiar with the game laws there but other than harvesting a fish that was in season by legal means? (catching by hand?) I was surprised to hear that so much touching and colle ting of sea life went on.

The thumbs up for us means it's over and the sooner the better. In OW, I can see how the action to take and what signal to use when should be agreed on before the dive.

First, my questions was in thinking the possibility of totally swapping my entire setup with his. I don't know if that is even realistic. I know I would have to shut the value off, but I didn't know if your BC would continue to hold air once you disconnected the pressure hose from the BC or would the BC deflat. This question was only in an absolute last resort situation and pure curiosity because I have never tried to leave a BC inflated and break down the gear without deflating the BC. Knowing what I do now, and after I was on the boat looking at everything, I think I would have been able to breath off the primary. The secondary purge did not work. The secondary only let water in by the end of the dive. I had already been purging because it was breathing wet.

I have also thought about the fact that there weren't any spare air tanks on the line either, which would have been a big help.

As far as thumbing the dive, yeah I am all for when a person wants to thumb the dive you end the dive. It is just that he asked me if I wanted to thumb the dive and my answer was no. If he had wanted to thumb the dive we would have ended the dive. R

Thanks for your questions, comments and advise. It all helps to learn from the experience. R
 
If the bc inflator/deflator valve is functioning the bc should hold air. It is possible to swap first stages UW but it could make for a very busy few minutes and I don't think it should be a first choice. Also you need one that's extra?

What I meant by hitting the purge to breath with a faulty diaghram was to hold the purge while breathing not just purge before breathing.

This is something we do in a Advanced Nitrox class. I fold a diaghram over so the reg just flat out floods big time. the student must breath off it for several minutes. It's easy once you get used to it. It's kind of like breathing from a free flow. It'll even work if the diaghram is gone. Try it in a pool sometime.
 
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