Prayer is useless?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm praying for this thread to end ... let's see if it works ... :browsmile

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[H2Andy]

is it working? is it working?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

 

[Supernal]

One more thing before I sign-off for the day...

My parents raised me Catholic, and as an adult, I have been a member at various protestant churches over the years. But all my life there were things about the Christian view of God that never sounded right to me. I have never once believed in Hell. I have never once believed that God would condemn people simply for not having the *proper* belief. I have ALWAYS believed that people of all faiths were connected in some way, and that none were bad or wrong. I have ALWAYS believed that if in fact God does judge us, it is based on who we are and what is in our hearts and not whose version of religion we adhered to.

Now, since all of these thoughts are things that I arrived at on my own, and not from the churches I attended, I could very well say that it has been an innate belief, possibly even given to me by God. What gives any HUMAN the right/ability/knowledge/power to judge my beliefs and label them wrong? The ONLY being in the universe who could possibly do that is God him/herself, and no human being can claim that title. So, all their holier-than-thou attempts at conversion and prayers for my salvation are unnecessary. I have my truth, and as much faith in it as they have in theirs.

Absolutely! Thank you!

 

[MikeFerrara]

correct. the Pauline letters which predate the Gospels contain no Gospel material, generally
speaking (for example, Paul seems wholly unaware of the Mary-Virgin-Birth
tradition). unfortunately, the Pauline letters are not very good witnesses
as to the history and life of Jesus. they are, in fact, silent on this subject.

I would consider 1 Corinthians 15:1 - , and 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 25 Gospel material (just for starters).

I can't think of a place where Paul specifically mentions the virgin birth but but he uses phrases like "according to the scriptures" and he certainly quotes Isaiah.

Paul may not provide a blow by blow account of the life or ministry of Jesus but he sure seemed to be convinced that Jesus lived, was betrayed, was crucified, died, was burried, was resurrected, later appeared to the opostles (including himself) and was seen by many others. Paul puts a lot of energy into teaching the significance of those events namely the payment for our sins and justification by faith...all of which he refered to as the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It seems clear that Paul did not believe (as some of the writers quoted in this thread) that Jesus was a mythical figure or was somehow confused with someone else who lived in a different time.

 

[H2Andy]

Mike, reading only the Pauline letters (even the disputed ones) put together
a biography of Jesus.

it'll be less than a page. in fact, you just did it in a paragraph!

next to that, put the four Gospels. lots and lots of pages.

just a few examples. Does Paul mention the Sermon on the Mount?
Does Paul mention the angels coming to the sheppherds?
Does Paul mention the wedding at Cannaa? Does Paul mention
Lazarus?

that's my point.

Paul certainly believed that Jesus was real. But note that Paul never met Jesus.
as far as we know from Paul, Jesus might have lived 10, 20, or even 30 years earlier.
We simply don't know because Paul never says so.

in fact, the ONE Biblical date for the birth of Jesus we have (the census of August
Ceasar) we know is wrong. there is no such census. from all the sources
we have (and we have tons of them) that census is mentioned nowhere else.
and due to the economic disruption it would cause, no such census would
order EVERYBODY to go back to the place were they were born to be counted.
(it's basically a literary device to have Jesus of Nazareth born in Bethlehem.
why that's important is basic theology). btw, only one gospel (Luke) mentions the
census. Matthew just says Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Neither Mark
nor John seem aware of where Jesus was born.

again, i am not talking about the spiritual significance of Jesus. mine is purely
a historical interest.

 

[ShoalDiverSA]

I am a bit worried with all this discussion. Can anyone tell me whether my Bible is DIR?

 

[Potapko]

Paul certainly believed that Jesus was real. But note that Paul never met Jesus.

This passage indicates that He did: Galatians 1:11-12
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul says the gospel was revealed to him directly by Jesus.

in fact, the ONE Biblical date for the birth of Jesus we have (the census of August
Ceasar) we know is wrong.

So these sources have in them every other example of a Ceasar taxing the people? Or are you convinced that this never took place at all?

btw, only one gospel (Luke) mentions the
census. Matthew just says Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Neither Mark
nor John seem aware of where Jesus was born.

Or it just wasn't important to state it again.


Paul not only was convinced that Jesus lived but that He is God.
1 Cor. 15:45-47
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Col. 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Philip. 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I am a bit worried with all this discussion. Can anyone tell me whether my Bible is DIR?

No, it isn't. It has a suicide clip on it.

 

[jepuskar]

If you really wanted for it to be DIR get rid of it. DIR teaches that if something is not useful or meaningful on a dive than you don't bring it. It is a minimalist approach.