Power inflator stuck on

[battles2a5]

So designed and tuned to prevent freeflow is now inferior? How many secondary regulators out there are tuned to perform like the primary? Sure there are many adjustable models, but relatively few divers have them for both the primary and secondary, also the arguement could be made that adjustable regulators are more prone to failure as they have more o-rings, moving parts, etc. so should not be used as seldom used and more abused secondaries.

Ike

I'd like to see some data where an adjustable reg has proben to be more failure-prone than a non-adjustable back-up. Additional failure modes, maybe. But second stages rarely fail and when they do, it's not because of the cracking pressure adjustment unless it was assembled incorrectly.

A LOT (the majority) of technical divers insist on having a high-end adjustable reg as a back-up. If you are in a situation where you need to donate air, chanced are pulses will be quickened and you don't want to be sucking throught that reg when your consumption rate increases. The ONLY situation I can see where this is a disadvantage is scootering, during which you would just crank down the cracking pressure on the back-up. So I would not state that using a low-performing back-up reg is preferable. The fact that an Air2 HAS to be detuned to the point where breathing performance is noticably degraded in order for it to work *correctly* tells me a lot about the design in general.

 

[charlesml3]

In the case I experienced the octoinflator obviously breathed poorly and to that experienced diver was unsuitable.

And so now you're changing the argument yet again. Octo-inflators are no good because it "obviously breathed poorly."

So which one is it, Arcticdiver? Are they dangerous because the guy was a jerk or are they unsuitable because they breathe poorly?

I'm not trying to sell anything. I work in Information Technology. My point is the same as it was before:

-There is no credible evidence to support the claim that octo-inflators are any more dangerous than a "traditional" octopus.

Every time I ask, I get these wildly emotional responses citing hypothetical situations. Hence the part about the giant squid.

I'll be the first to admit that my octo-inflator doesn't breath as well as my primary. So what? It delivers air and will get me to the surface. I'll even go so far as to say it breathes poorly. That still doesn't make it dangerous.

-Charles

 

[redacted]

So designed and tuned to prevent freeflow is now inferior? How many secondary regulators out there are tuned to perform like the primary? Sure there are many adjustable models, but relatively few divers have them for both the primary and secondary, also the arguement could be made that adjustable regulators are more prone to failure as they have more o-rings, moving parts, etc. so should not be used as seldom used and more abused secondaries.

Ike

My adjustable secondaries have 2 o-rings. My primaries are balanced and adjustable so they have 4 o-rings but 2 of the 4 work as a pair and provide redundancy.

 

[Isaac-1]

I'd like to see some data where an adjustable reg has proben to be more failure-prone than a non-adjustable back-up. Additional failure modes, maybe. But second stages rarely fail and when they do, it's not because of the cracking pressure adjustment unless it was assembled incorrectly.

A LOT (the majority) of technical divers insist on having a high-end adjustable reg as a back-up. ...

Ask anyone that has ever worked as a regulator repair tech, When all else is equal do they see more failures in the simple or complex designs? (this holds true to both 1st and 2nd stages) As you yourself admit there are more failure modes, with all else being equal this almost ensures higher failure rates. Particulalry when you consider that we are talking about adding a user adjustable dynamic o-ring sealed stem that is often exposed to sand and other debris.

Ike

 

[Isaac-1]

My adjustable secondaries have 2 o-rings. My primaries are balanced and adjustable so they have 4 o-rings but 2 of the 4 work as a pair and provide redundancy.

Awap, based on your other messages you seem to be well versed on the workings of regulagtors, my initial side point was intended to point out that there can be arguements made against all designs. Particularly when dealing with matched pairs of complex primary and secondary regulators, a case you obviously do not have. Using an example from the real world and otherwise closely related regulators, I know when I worked for a shop with a rental fleet of regualtors composed of Scubapro G250 Primaries & Secondaries, vs. G250 Primaries and G200B secondaries that service rate on the matched G250's was much higher than the units with the G200B's. The simple fact that the G200B did not have the user adjustable knob is a large part of the issue, as not only do you have the dynamic o-ring issue in the adjustment stem, you also have the stem itself that is somewhat exposted to being bent (although I must admit bent stems seemed to be more of an issue on the older balanced adjustable).

Ike

p.s. I have nothing against your choice of regulators, it seems you have given thought to the issue, my concern is all those the blindly choose based upon faulty assumpstions, and lack of understanding.

 

[battles2a5]

Ask anyone that has ever worked as a regulator repair tech, When all else is equal do they see more failures in the simple or complex designs? (this holds true to both 1st and 2nd stages) As you yourself admit there are more failure modes, with all else being equal this almost ensures higher failure rates. Particulalry when you consider that we are talking about adding a user adjustable dynamic o-ring sealed stem that is often exposed to sand and other debris.

Ike

This does not almost "ensure" higher failure rates. If a reg is serviced regularly and is a quality reg to begin with, these types of failures are practically non-existest. I have never heard of the cracking pressure adjustment assembly failing.

 

[battles2a5]

I'm not trying to sell anything. I work in Information Technology. My point is the same as it was before:

-There is no credible evidence to support the claim that octo-inflators are any more dangerous than a "traditional" octopus.

Every time I ask, I get these wildly emotional responses citing hypothetical situations. Hence the part about the giant squid.

I'll be the first to admit that my octo-inflator doesn't breath as well as my primary. So what? It delivers air and will get me to the surface. I'll even go so far as to say it breathes poorly. That still doesn't make it dangerous.

-Charles

I have outlined a few examples of where this would be dangerous, especially in the case where the inflator mecahnism sticks (hence the title of the thread). That is not emotional, it is simple fact. If the inflator is disconnected, you no longer have an alternate for you or your buddy. In this case it would most certainly be more dangerous than a conventional configuration.

It will be hard to get "hard data" to support this because most of the poeple who dive in environments where this would be a big issue have enough sense to avoid these things in the first place.

 

[redacted]

This does not almost "ensure" higher failure rates. If a reg is serviced regularly and is a quality reg to begin with, these types of failures are practically non-existest. I have never heard of the cracking pressure adjustment assembly failing.

I have seen some slightly bent adjustment knobs on old Scubapro metals. I suspect you may not see that as much on G250s and newer adjustables because when they take the fall or hit that is sever enough to bend a knob, the bits and pieces of the plastic case distract you from the damage to the knob.

 

[charlesml3]

The "hard data" would be hard to get because it doesn't exist. I've asked time and time again and nobody has yet to come forth with a verifiable, real-world example of a situation that was caused by or exaserbated by an octo-inflator.

All I get is speculation and hypothetical situations that don't really hold up to scrutiny.

If I have to disconnect my octo-inflator hose during a dive because it's stuck then I'm going to make a decision at that time based on how much time I have left on the dive, current, visibility, experience and comfort with my dive buddy. If things are casual and easy, I'll just let my buddy know I had to disconnect it and finish the dive closer to him. If conditions don't permit then I head up. No big deal.

-Charles

 

[InTheDrink]

Well you've identified yourself a scenario where the preferred method for dealing with an OOA situation becomes unavailable. Ergo there is an added risk with diving this way, no?