Pony or buddy when low/no air?

[scubadada]

The valve on my slung pony is always open, I would simply hand them the 2nd stage. The pony would still be on me. I would accompany them to the surface

 

[doctormike]

The valve on my slung pony is always open, I would simply hand them the 2nd stage. The pony would still be on me. I would accompany them to the surface

Not charged and closed? For those who favor small ponies (I certainly don't), remember that a free flow at 100 feet drains about a cubic foot every two seconds. And a free flow on a slung pony isn't always noticed immediately.

I have my bailout open, but that's a bit different because I can't rely on being in the best shape when I need to switch (CO2). Also, it's an AL80 and the regulator is on a necklace, so I'm going to notice a free flow right away.

 

[mi000ke]

Let us know how traveling on a commercial airliner goes for you.
(Remember, that cylinder has to be "open"...not "the valve, the cylinder)
Sometimes TSA doesn't care, other times it just magically disappears, only a note left in its place. Best luck carrying it on, better to simply manage your gas plunging into the darkness of the treacherous environment of chartered Caribbean dive boats.

It's a new tank with the valve off, and I'm just packing it in my checked bag (it's nicely padded as shipped to me). Leaving it there when I return, so just have to make one trip with it.

I have so far survived the treacherous waters of the Caymans just by managing my gas, but reading all the posts from you kind folks on SB put the fear of god in me, so at little cost and essentially no downside I got the pony. If nothing else it will look cool, and isn't that what it's all about?

 

[halocline]

Or just carry a big enough pony. You are describing a "soft overhead", so you should carry enough redundant gas to get you out of the water safely (which in this case, means a return to the anchor line).

I gotta say, I'm always surprised at how we argue about the size of pony bottles. I sling an 80, and it is barely noticeable in the water, a bit heavy walking across the deck, but no big deal, and I'm also diving with a big DSLR. If I went back to a 40, I would have to keep checking to see if it was still there.

No one ever had a problem because they had too much gas with them.

I don't think this is true. More gas means more responsibility, more opportunity to dive in a riskier manner, more exposure to N2 load/deco obligation. More gas does not automatically equal more safety.

I just have a very different view of recreational diving, which is, bring an appropriate amount of gas for the planned dive, and that's it. I'm not going to bring an entire extra tank for some vague "what if" scenario. I conduct the dive an enjoyable safe manner, which means I always have access to the surface, dive well within NDL limits, and monitor my gas responsibly.

Although there are always exceptions, the basic reason people get into trouble with gas is simple irresponsibility and/or poor judgement. Carrying 160 cft of gas for a 80 cft dive plan is not my idea of addressing the actual issue.

 

[doctormike]

I don't think this is true. More gas means more responsibility, more opportunity to dive in a riskier manner, more exposure to N2 load/deco obligation. More gas does not automatically equal more safety.

I just have a very different view of recreational diving, which is, bring an appropriate amount of gas for the planned dive, and that's it. I'm not going to bring an entire extra tank for some vague "what if" scenario. I conduct the dive an enjoyable safe manner, which means I always have access to the surface, dive well within NDL limits, and monitor my gas responsibly.

Although there are always exceptions, the basic reason people get into trouble with gas is simple irresponsibility and/or poor judgement. Carrying 160 cft of gas for a 80 cft dive plan is not my idea of addressing the actual issue.

LOL... you got me. I should have said "No one has ever had a problem because they brought too much emergency gas with them"..! I thought it was clear from the context.

You are bringing up something off topic here - recreational divers who are typically limited by gas volume can get into deco if they bring extra gas. This is one of the arguments against people diving doubles without technical training. And I agree with you on that point, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

The extra gas that we are discussing here is contingency in case of catastrophic gas loss, not a stage to extend bottom time. You may feel that you will never have this issue because you (1) stick to NDLs, (2) stick to safe CESA depths, (3) are never in overhead environments, and (4) are never diving near someone who doesn't monitor their gas well. I guess in that case you don't feel that you need an alternate gas supply (although both agencies that provide solo certifications require this, from what I understand). But that's an argument against an alternate gas supply, and a reasonable one.

However, the discussion was about what to do if you are carrying a pony and you are OOG - use the pony or go to your buddy. A 19 CUF pony was being discussed, and I was saying that it makes sense to carry a bigger one than that (i.e. a 40) in the context of Steve's post (describing OOG away from the ascent line).

 

[scubadada]

The valve on my slung pony is always open, I would simply hand them the 2nd stage. The pony would still be on me. I would accompany them to the surface

Not charged and closed? For those who favor small ponies (I certainly don't), remember that a free flow at 100 feet drains about a cubic foot every two seconds. And a free flow on a slung pony isn't always noticed immediately.

I have my bailout open, but that's a bit different because I can't rely on being in the best shape when I need to switch (CO2). Also, it's an AL80 and the regulator is on a necklace, so I'm going to notice a free flow right away.

Hi @doctormike

No, always on.

I nearly exclusively dive solo, my pony is my emergency gas supply only. The pony 2nd stage and a full size SPG is right in front and below me, I don't think I would miss a free flow, have not had one to date. It's extremely unlikely that I'm randomly going to run into an OOA diver. If I did, I would do what I said above, quickly hand them the 2nd stage from my pony and then figure out what to do. I would have the option of keeping them with me or handing off the pony, if that seemed appropriate.

There have been several threads discussing always open vs. charged and off with strong opinions on both sides. For those deciding on a back mounted pony, which would be always on, the likelihood of spotting a free flow is probably lower.

Good diving,

Dr. Craig

 

[doctormike]

Hi @doctormike

No, always on.

I nearly exclusively dive solo, my pony is my emergency gas supply only. The pony 2nd stage and a full size SPG is right in front and below me, I don't think I would miss a free flow, have not had one to date. It's extremely unlikely that I'm randomly going to run into an OOA diver. If I did, I would do what I said above, quickly hand them the 2nd stage from my pony and then figure out what to do. I would have the option of keeping them with me or handing off the pony, if that seemed appropriate.

There have been several threads discussing always open vs. charged and off with strong opinions on both sides. For those deciding on a back mounted pony, which would be always on, the likelihood of spotting a free flow is probably lower.

Good diving,

Dr. Craig

Yeah, certainly not a clear preference for either approach. Just my personal preference, thought I would bring it up. But you are right, it should be easy to see a free flow with a slung bottle (I do NOT like back mounted ponies).

One downside of having a tank shut off became clear to me on a recent dive. I felt something sticking in my side, and I looked down to see my bailout tank missing the valve handle! In all these years of diving, I had never thought to check that nut for tightness before. Imagine if it had been off, or if I had had a free flow then...

I bought one of these and now I check the valve nuts on a regular basis on all of my tanks:

 

[scubadada]

Yeah, certainly not a clear preference for either approach. Just my personal preference, thought I would bring it up. But you are right, it should be easy to see a free flow with a slung bottle (I do NOT like back mounted ponies).

One downside of having a tank shut off became clear to me on a recent dive. I felt something sticking in my side, and I looked down to see my bailout tank missing the valve handle! In all these years of diving, I had never thought to check that nut for tightness before. Imagine if it had been off, or if I had had a free flow then...

I bought one of these and now I check the valve nuts on a regular basis on all of my tanks:

View attachment 396491

Thanks @doctormike

I don't have my own cylinders down in Florida and rent them. For these heavily used tanks, occasionally the valve nut is loose enough that it is difficult to turn on or off. I'm going to get one of the valve nut drivers and put it in with my tool kit. I'll be able to help myself and others. You'd think the owner of the rental cylinders would tighten these occasionally

Good diving,

Craig

 

[halocline]

The extra gas that we are discussing here is contingency in case of catastrophic gas loss, not a stage to extend bottom time.

I understand that, but when you start talking about an additional 40 or even 80 cft of 'emergency' gas for a single tank recreational dive, you are so far beyond what is required to get 2 divers safely to the surface that it almost implies diving in environments that are more technical in nature.

The basic bedrock of safe recreational diving is based on two principles: 1) dive with a responsible buddy, and 2) always have access to the surface. Once you abandon either of those principles, you are adding risk to your diving. Nothing wrong that, but the simple addition of redundant gas does not really mitigate those risks. A catastrophic gas loss in recreational diving should never be life threatening; you simply head to the surface with your buddy. If you can't do that for any reason, then my argument is you have de-facto left the realm of recreational diving and entered technical diving. It's a grey area for sure. What bothers me is that many divers, sometimes very new divers, talk as if just strapping on a bail out bottle takes the risk out of those scenarios, and in my opinion it does not.

Solo diving is an entirely different situation, but IMO solo diving is a form of technical diving, in the sense that it is not taught in basic OW classes and generally requires some specialized training, awareness, gear, and attitude.

The 'emergency gas' part of technical and/or solo diving is a small part of the solution to diving in higher-risk situations.

 

[mi000ke]

The basic bedrock of safe recreational diving is based on two principles: 1) dive with a responsible buddy, and 2) always have access to the surface. Once you abandon either of those principles, you are adding risk to your diving. Nothing wrong that, but the simple addition of redundant gas does not really mitigate those risks.

What bothers me is that many divers, sometimes very new divers, talk as if just strapping on a bail out bottle takes the risk out of those scenarios, and in my opinion it does not.

I agree with the point about access to the surface, but one of the reasons I got the pony was to mitigate the risk of a less-than-responsible/reliable buddy. Seems to me if I can get myself to the surface in a controlled and safe manner using a pony, then I have pretty much mitigated the buddy issue (again, solely for an OOA situation). What am I missing?