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Pony Bottle, worth it?
- Thread starter Scubaru_Steve
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this is the problem with most of these type of sites there are allways people who's only reason for loging on is to try and impress others with your witty comentary and critisims of others, this thread was started by someone just looking for opinions, which is what i gave, i never sugested that a 13cf tank saved my life or that i ran out of air i only said i was glad i had it so im not sure what you want me to prove you wrong about but i'll give you a breif explanation not to prove you wrong but to show how petty you are. when i broke the hose entering a van we were atenpting to lift i only had apx 800 psi left, having the little tank allowed me to finish what i was doing without worring about having surface re-kit and then finish, i only breathed on it from my saftey stop to the surface. so i was glad i had it, nothing more.
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GrumpyOldGuy
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First, you did imply having the 13cu ft tank potentially saved your life in your original post.
Second, I was not there so I don't have all the facts. You chose to be selective in the disclosing only part of the story and take offense when someone points out the logical fallacy in your story.
- You had 800PSI left and chose to enter a van in a recovery attempt, not a rescue but a recovery.
- You had an equipment failure and chose to continue the dive with a bailout bottle rather than abort
Last, choosing to carry a pony is a personal choice that can be made for rational reasons or just to feel warm and fuzzy, your choice I don't care. However, once you advocate anything on SB, be prepared to have sound, logical arguments to back it up. If you try to bluff with something like the HP hose story, be prepared to get called on it.
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-hh
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An interesting 16 pages.
In simplest terms, a Pony is merely a piece of gear that addresses some portion of a dive's overall risk mitigation plan. More specifically, it is functionally a redundant air supply, which in recreational diving is traditionally assigned as one of the reasons to have a Dive Buddy.
I have a 13...and I agree that a 19 is a better choice for ~100fsw dives. Here's a link to an Excel Spreadsheet output that illustrates a IMO reasonable contingency planning scenario.
FYI, if you want to download a copy of the spreadsheet itself to play with, it can be found here.
It is a derivative work from what had been in the rec.scuba FAQ from 20+ years ago (hence, why it goes to 200fsw, presumably on air), with the primary change (besides being able to manipulate all the variables) being that the old 60ft/min ascent rate was updated to 30ft/min, to reflect modern diver computers.
Note that the basic underlying philosophy for using such a "slow" ascent rate is that it (a) builds in a bit more safety margin; (b) allows the dive recovery to not also include a "bent" computer that would probably prevent you from diving for the next 24-48 hours.
I used to fly with a Pony. I pulled it from my baggage for a dive trip that was ~4 days after flights were resumed after 9/11 and haven't flown with it since.
FWIW, if I were looking at "risky-enough" dives where I'd want to have redundancy onboard, I'd not bother with a pony at all ... I'd set up independent twins, such as twin AL80s from the local resort's rental tank supply.
Pre-9/11, I had a webpage on the FAA & ICAO regulations; have pulled it down because of all of the TSA stuff. What are the current rules/policies? Is it still a "pull the entire valve off"?
A local conditions requirement that is often enforced. I still use my pony for such local coldwater diving.
Yes, I found it to be a compatibility issue with an UW Camera (Nikonos, back then). I went to a tank-mount system...think it is the "Pon-Ease" one, which was nice because it clamps around the BC's tank strap, so it is very easy to refit onto rental gear if you don't have your own with you. Not sure if it is still sold or not.
-hh
Based on some of the reasoning presenting above, it may sound like we should stop carrying any safety devices that we didn't need for our last hundred dives.
If, if, if - if s/he always travels with you, makes every dive you do, sticks with you like a remora, and nothing goes wrong...
In simplest terms, a Pony is merely a piece of gear that addresses some portion of a dive's overall risk mitigation plan. More specifically, it is functionally a redundant air supply, which in recreational diving is traditionally assigned as one of the reasons to have a Dive Buddy.
I have a 13...and I agree that a 19 is a better choice for ~100fsw dives. Here's a link to an Excel Spreadsheet output that illustrates a IMO reasonable contingency planning scenario.
FYI, if you want to download a copy of the spreadsheet itself to play with, it can be found here.
It is a derivative work from what had been in the rec.scuba FAQ from 20+ years ago (hence, why it goes to 200fsw, presumably on air), with the primary change (besides being able to manipulate all the variables) being that the old 60ft/min ascent rate was updated to 30ft/min, to reflect modern diver computers.
Note that the basic underlying philosophy for using such a "slow" ascent rate is that it (a) builds in a bit more safety margin; (b) allows the dive recovery to not also include a "bent" computer that would probably prevent you from diving for the next 24-48 hours.
I used to fly with a Pony. I pulled it from my baggage for a dive trip that was ~4 days after flights were resumed after 9/11 and haven't flown with it since.
FWIW, if I were looking at "risky-enough" dives where I'd want to have redundancy onboard, I'd not bother with a pony at all ... I'd set up independent twins, such as twin AL80s from the local resort's rental tank supply.
Pre-9/11, I had a webpage on the FAA & ICAO regulations; have pulled it down because of all of the TSA stuff. What are the current rules/policies? Is it still a "pull the entire valve off"?
A local conditions requirement that is often enforced. I still use my pony for such local coldwater diving.
Yes, I found it to be a compatibility issue with an UW Camera (Nikonos, back then). I went to a tank-mount system...think it is the "Pon-Ease" one, which was nice because it clamps around the BC's tank strap, so it is very easy to refit onto rental gear if you don't have your own with you. Not sure if it is still sold or not.
-hh
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Dr Wu
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I know this horse has been beaten to death, reanimated, and then beaten again, but I'd like to share a recent experience:
Up until recently, I only carried a pony on deep dives with AOW and deep specialty students, or on solo dives. Now I carry one on most dives. A few months back, my buddy of 24 years and I were heading up-slope back to the beach from a 65' reef dive. At 40', I had 1000psi left when my second stage developed an uncontrolled freeflow. My buddy offered me his AAS and we ascended. Only at the surface, did the free flow finally stop. I had still had positive pressure in my tank which registered below 100psi. It was so low that I could spin the valve on the tank without tools.
Experience, training, confidence, and a good buddy all came together to effect a positive outcome in this incident. The reg I was diving on was brand new which the manufacturer had loaned me to evaluate. We inspected it following the dive and could not find any reason for the malfunction.
Consider a less experienced diver, or dive team, encountering this at a greater depth, say 130' towards the end of a dive. Add stress and maybe some cold water, where two people could potentially over breathe the donor's system and cause it to freeze up, and the outcome might be something we read about on the Accident & Incident or Passings forums.
In 27 years of diving, apart from one flooded light, I never had another equipment failure and have never run out of gas. My buddy and I are very in tune with each other and are never more then a few kicks away from each other. During some 500 dives with each other we've only separated twice which required us to surface. I feel I could safely CESA from most of the dives I make. I'd rather not attempt one from 130' having never practiced it that deep. All that being said, I see no negatives to carrying a independent, redundant, back up gas supply, nor any reasons why I shouldn't carry one.
I read someone calling a pony bottle a, "crutch." That's about one of the most ignorant statements I've read on Scubaboard. I do not plan my dives differently with or without a pony. My pony gas does not factor into my gas management scheme. I read someone argue against ponies because they throw off your buoyancy characteristics... nonsense. I would argue the life-saving benefit of having one outweighs any perceived buoyancy problem. If you have to hand it off, you're going to the surface. You're not going to be swimming around on your side because you shed 1-2lbs. Bad planning, LOA, or OOA are not the ONLY situations where a pony might be of use (see above).
To answer the OP, while the odds of you every having to deploy your pony are fairly slim, IMHO, the question to ask yourself is, "what is my life worth?" If you can afford to add the extra margin of safety, why not? Some divers consider it an extra hassle they don't need. That's fine for them. It takes me an extra two minutes, tops, to setup my pony. I consider that a small price to pay for something that may someday save my life, or a buddy's.
Up until recently, I only carried a pony on deep dives with AOW and deep specialty students, or on solo dives. Now I carry one on most dives. A few months back, my buddy of 24 years and I were heading up-slope back to the beach from a 65' reef dive. At 40', I had 1000psi left when my second stage developed an uncontrolled freeflow. My buddy offered me his AAS and we ascended. Only at the surface, did the free flow finally stop. I had still had positive pressure in my tank which registered below 100psi. It was so low that I could spin the valve on the tank without tools.
Experience, training, confidence, and a good buddy all came together to effect a positive outcome in this incident. The reg I was diving on was brand new which the manufacturer had loaned me to evaluate. We inspected it following the dive and could not find any reason for the malfunction.
Consider a less experienced diver, or dive team, encountering this at a greater depth, say 130' towards the end of a dive. Add stress and maybe some cold water, where two people could potentially over breathe the donor's system and cause it to freeze up, and the outcome might be something we read about on the Accident & Incident or Passings forums.
In 27 years of diving, apart from one flooded light, I never had another equipment failure and have never run out of gas. My buddy and I are very in tune with each other and are never more then a few kicks away from each other. During some 500 dives with each other we've only separated twice which required us to surface. I feel I could safely CESA from most of the dives I make. I'd rather not attempt one from 130' having never practiced it that deep. All that being said, I see no negatives to carrying a independent, redundant, back up gas supply, nor any reasons why I shouldn't carry one.
I read someone calling a pony bottle a, "crutch." That's about one of the most ignorant statements I've read on Scubaboard. I do not plan my dives differently with or without a pony. My pony gas does not factor into my gas management scheme. I read someone argue against ponies because they throw off your buoyancy characteristics... nonsense. I would argue the life-saving benefit of having one outweighs any perceived buoyancy problem. If you have to hand it off, you're going to the surface. You're not going to be swimming around on your side because you shed 1-2lbs. Bad planning, LOA, or OOA are not the ONLY situations where a pony might be of use (see above).
To answer the OP, while the odds of you every having to deploy your pony are fairly slim, IMHO, the question to ask yourself is, "what is my life worth?" If you can afford to add the extra margin of safety, why not? Some divers consider it an extra hassle they don't need. That's fine for them. It takes me an extra two minutes, tops, to setup my pony. I consider that a small price to pay for something that may someday save my life, or a buddy's.
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