Pony bottle vs. Spare Air?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Spare Air does not give enough air to make a real difference. A diver can literally breathe ten times normal tidal air (about 1-1/2 pints that we normally breathe) when panicked or in trouble. Depending on depth and the volume of the Spare air, a diver can breathe it empty in a minute or two. Also, a spare air can easily be dropped and lost, when passing it off for example, or by the user if it's not secured to the user. We are trained to use second stages on hoses - the spare air is different. Unless you train with it often and in realistic stressful conditions then the chances of failure in a real life out-of-air emergency are high. Another serious concern is that you need one hand to hold the spare air to use it. If things are going wrong you want to have both your hands free! - as they can be when using a pony bottle regulator. A pony regulator is the same as a primary regulator.

stay safe always, good question,
Andrea
teamlgs.com

Sorry, I have a difference of opinion here....

Before I start, I don't own a SA, I would not recommend one and I don't even use my 6cu ft bailout bottle on most dives. I have practiced with it, ascending from 85 ft INCLUDING a safety stop and a 30 fpm ascent rate. Obviously in a OOA situation, I would use more air and skip the safety stop.

The statement about the amount of air in SA not making a difference is simply false. It can make a difference, even it it us just the knowledge that you have a few quick breaths that keeps you from going in full panic mode. If you know you have a few breaths, you are less likely to panic and suck down the little air you have. In reality, its like a leatherman tool, not really good at anything, but when you have nothing else, you might be able to make do with it.

Second, in practice, I have no problem using my 6cu ft bailout with no hands. The bottles are close to neutral underwater, not a big deal.

Third, pony regualtors may be a standard regulator or may be a specialized unit that combines the valves and 1st stage into a single piece to reduce weight.

Lastly, it is nor more difficult to practice with a SA/Bailout/Pony/Twinset than it is with a octo. In all cases, all you really need to do is work it out with you buddy and do it.

SA, bailouts, ponys and twins are all dive tools with diffent operational envelopes. Its good to understand them, each may have their own place for different divers. Reliance on any of these items alone is stupidity, buddies, training and practice are the tall poles holding up the tent.

 

[salth2owannabe]

For a "grumpy old guy" you sure are smart!
Most common sense answer to this discussion yet!
Thanks

 

[Lowrider Steve]

I couldn't agree more. I just don't understand why some seem to be so anti-SpareAir. Certainly a pony is a better solution IF you have it with you, but I will take even one breath over none.

 

[DandyDon]

I couldn't agree more. I just don't understand why some seem to be so anti-SpareAir. Certainly a pony is a better solution IF you have it with you, but I will take even one breath over none.

Each he his/her own view, but to me - for the money involved and the reward at a time of need, anything less than 6 cf is just not a good idea. You wanta spend $300 on a bail out, get 19 cf rather than 1.7. or 3 - and the Nitrox Spare Air is an insult to the intelligence of any diver. Then for me, once I decided to spend the $300 on bail out, the 19 seemed more reasonable.

Add to that the false feeling of security of a 3 cf.

Yeah, I'm repeating myself, sorry...

 

[Heffey]

Each he his/her own view, but to me - for the money involved and the reward at a time of need, anything less than 6 cf is just not a good idea. You wanta spend $300 on a bail out, get 19 cf rather than 1.7. or 3 - and the Nitrox Spare Air is an insult to the intelligence of any diver. Then for me, once I decided to spend the $300 on bail out, the 19 seemed more reasonable.

Add to that the false feeling of security of a 3 cf.

Yeah, I'm repeating myself, sorry...

Much of what you say has merit but I just don’t get the false feeling of security thing.

As long as I understand capabilities of a particular piece of equipment and I also understand my requirements then where is the false feeling of security? I would assume that if you had a SA that you would not feel secure, false or otherwise. Why should we assume that others don’t understand SA’s capabilities or lack of capabilities and are feeling falsely secure? Just because they want one?

I dive with a 13cf bottle because it suits my needs. I have no delusions of its capabilities and I feel very secure that it will deliver the amount of air that I expect it to if the time ever arises that I need it.

 

[DandyDon]

Much of what you say has merit but I just don’t get the false feeling of security thing.

As long as I understand capabilities of a particular piece of equipment and I also understand my requirements then where is the false feeling of security? I would assume that if you had a SA that you would not feel secure, false or otherwise. Why should we assume that others don’t understand SA’s capabilities or lack of capabilities and are feeling falsely secure? Just because they want one?

I dive with a 13cf bottle because it suits my needs. I have no delusions of its capabilities and I feel very secure that it will deliver the amount of air that I expect it to if the time ever arises that I need it.

Ok, that remark may well not apply to you at all - and I didn't mean it that it did. I was thinking more of the Vacation diver who straps on a 3 cf Spare Air then doesn't watch his SPG, thinking "I don't need no stinkin' gauges; I got me spare tank," but he may not have drilled with it and certainly may not understand how little air he does have in that mini-bottle - if he does deploy it right.

Pony bottle divers screw up, too. I had a classic one once sometime after 100 dives logged, learning the importance of being able to see your pony valve and spg easily, reach the valve, etc - and feeling like I didn't need a buddy. I'll probly always have problems with that last part, in part because I'm always diving with boat-picks, and in part because I'm too much of a maverick. I try to work at safety and these discussions help me a lot with the mind practice and what-if planning.

 

[Alex777]

226 posts! I can't believe you guys are still going at this! Perhaps the answer would be, "it all depends upon what you're doing and the level of risk you intend to accept"?

 

[Heffey]

226 posts! I can't believe you guys are still going at this! Perhaps the answer would be, "it all depends upon what you're doing and the level of risk you intend to accept"?

Come on Alex, now you just became one of us. Way to keep the thread alive.

 

[Lowrider Steve]

Ok, that remark may well not apply to you at all - and I didn't mean it that it did. I was thinking more of the Vacation diver who straps on a 3 cf Spare Air then doesn't watch his SPG, thinking "I don't need no stinkin' gauges; I got me spare tank," but he may not have drilled with it and certainly may not understand how little air he does have in that mini-bottle - if he does deploy it right.

Thank you for finally explaining your attitude about SA. I carry a spare air and I am one of your Vacation Divers. But there is no way I come close to relying on the SpareAir. The thought that "I have extra air with me, so I can cut it close" never enters my mind. My wife and I practice OOA with the SA before every dive trip. We always dive as buddies, always staying close for buddy support. We don't count on SA for anything. It is solely as an emergency situation.

 

[DandyDon]

And I don't mean my attitude to seem condescending, altho I may be guilty. :blush:

Good on ya for doing the drills and not including the Spare Air in your dive plan.