Pony bottle & recreational diving...Need input...

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I'm NOT wanting to be confrontational, just to explore this a bit. What you are suggesting is that such a diver is likely to be highly stressed and already to have a high workload? So any extra operations beyond those immediately essential to maintain life cannot be entertained? This to me suggests a serious deficiency in training. A diver who is "on the edge" as this suggests is not a safe diver, nor is likely to be a comfortable one.

While proper training will obviously help in emergencies, there is no way to truly put yourself in that emergency situation (safely). People panic, who knows what they're going to do. I'd even venture to say most rec divers will have some level of panic and possibly make some mistakes in an emergency. Personally, I'd simply rather not risk it, in an emergency I want the steps to get air as simple and quick as possible.

Kind of like in OW, I remember my instructor saying something along the lines of. "so when you're out of air, you make the OOA signal, and your buddy calmly passes you the reg and you breathe (which is how we did the drills); in reality someone will just snatch the reg out of your mouth. Everyone is trained on calmly asking their buddy for air, I guess most don't do this properly in an OOA emergency.

Let me draw what I think is quite a good parallel. A new driver may have problems coordinating everything involved in driving a car, but that's no justification or excuse for failing to maintain a proper visual scan including the mirror, and understanding what he needs to know from it. A driver in training is likely to find the workload almost overpowering, but with proper training gets the hang of it and by the time he's released onto an unsuspecting public has it pretty well under control. Saying in Court you didn't use your rearview mirror and (therefore) didn't know what was behind you is NO defence if you thereby caused an accident.

I don't know if that's a good parallel because you seem to be talking about day to day driving, not a paniced emergency situation. A better analogy would be a situation where your instinct is slam on your brakes: before doing this you are trained to check your rear-view mirror so if someone will smash into you you could take an alternate action like swerve out of the way. In the driving school drills I did this perfectly, in real life I can't say I've always checked my mirror before slamming on my breaks.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

For me I choose to have all regs live. I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions.

Identical to my thinking.

 

[peterbj7]

While proper training will obviously help in emergencies, there is no way to truly put yourself in that emergency situation

True to a point, but then how do airline pilots learn to fly models they're new to?

I don't know if that's a good parallel because you seem to be talking about day to day driving, not a paniced emergency situation

When you start a driving journey you don't know which it'll be. I don't see any distinction.

A better analogy would be a situation where your instinct is slam on your brakes: before doing this you are trained to check your rear-view mirror

I wasn't, and during my driving test the examiner covered up the mirror just before he ordered the emergency stop. During instruction my instructor occasionally covered the mirror and then asked me what was behind. You are meant to monitor the mirror at all times so you always have a pretty good idea of what's behind you. In an actual emergency you don't have time to look in the mirror. That's in the UK, but driving is driving and I can't believe the US is much different. Actually I also took a South African commercial driving test and it was done there as well.

Have you ever been asked by an instructor (back on diving now) how much air you have, without being allowed to check your gauge? It was done to me and I do it to my students. You should maintain a scan of all important instruments etc so that in an emergency you don't need to look at it - you already know with sufficient accuracy. Just as you should have a pretty good idea of your depth without checking your gauge.

 

[peterbj7]

I weigh the risk of losing my pony gas against the risk of breathing a dead reg in an emergency. If I do lose gas somehow I will notice it and can adjust my dive accordingly. This will be done under non stressed non lethal conditions. If I, or someone else, breathes a dead reg and needs to turn the valve on this will be done under stressed lethal conditions. I choose to take on the non lethal risk that I will deal with under non stressed conditions rather than the lethal risk I will deal with under stressed conditions

The point about structured training is that a simple thing like losing the gas from one cylinder, then having to transfer to another and turn it on first is not remotely stressful. As to "lethal" - well, it isn't that either. The stress does certainly exist, but it takes place during the training in a highly controlled environment. Once you've experienced a potentially stressful problem in training and survived it, with help and probably not on the first occasion, then when (not if) it happens for real it's an issue you've experienced before and you can handle it calmly. In fact, for one agency I teach/taught for it is REQUIRED that during training the student experiences real stress, and works through it to a safe conclusion.

 

[FritzCat66]

To the OP: Try removing your reg and doing a CESA from 100', which is your certification limit at AOW. If you are uncomfortable at all doing that, then stick with your pony and politely tell your instructor you appreciate his advice but have decided to keep your little yellow buddy.

Your instructor has the right to their opinion, and you have the right to smile and ignore them and still get your certification, as long as you meet the requirements of whatever agency you're certifying with - and except for possibly some elitist esoteric techie agencies who want all divers to look like clones, I doubt any of them specifies that you can't or shouldn't carry a pony.

>*< Fritz

 

[peterbj7]

elitist esoteric techie agencies who want all divers to look like clones, I doubt any of them specifies that you can't or shouldn't carry a pony

I believe that the only agency that comes to mind as fitting that description DOES specify that you WON'T carry a pony .

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

True to a point, but then how do airline pilots learn to fly models they're new to?

Well I think in anything you have to wonder how someone will react in an emergency, including the pilot on the plane. There are many instances of pilots doing the downright wrong thing when the investigation comes out. I know if I was a passenger on a plane I'd prefer the emergency procedures are as simple as possible and don't include extra steps, even if someone says that "a pilot who can't do these extra steps shows a serious deficiency in training".

When you start a driving journey you don't know which it'll be. I don't see any distinction.

I missed this, what?

I wasn't, and during my driving test the examiner covered up the mirror just before he ordered the emergency stop. During instruction my instructor occasionally covered the mirror and then asked me what was behind. You are meant to monitor the mirror at all times so you always have a pretty good idea of what's behind you. In an actual emergency you don't have time to look in the mirror. That's in the UK, but driving is driving and I can't believe the US is much different. Actually I also took a South African commercial driving test and it was done there as well.

Ya I've had that too where they cover up the mirror, the point is that this is something during regular driving, not an emergency situation.

And the slamming on the brakes wasn't part of a driving test, it was part of driving school (Canada, not US) They taught you that when you slam on the brakes you should be checking the rear view mirror to make sure this is the best course of action. Or when you swerve you look beside you, or whatever. Of course this isn't always realistic, but even so it's easy to forget to do once you leave the comfort of a simulation in driving school.

Have you ever been asked by an instructor (back on diving now) how much air you have, without being allowed to check your gauge? It was done to me and I do it to my students. You should maintain a scan of all important instruments etc so that in an emergency you don't need to look at it - you already know with sufficient accuracy. Just as you should have a pretty good idea of your depth without checking your gauge.

This situation does parallel the driving one: actually almost a perfect match. I'm just not sure how it relates to an OOA emergency. One is the everyday things you should get into the habit of doing (whether checking mirror or gauge), the other is in a few seconds doing the right thing in an incredibly rare event.

 

[peterbj7]

In the UK driving instruction and the test are (or were) conducted on public roads, not in simulation. The instructor or examiner as appropriate satisfies himself that it's safe to conduct the manoeuvre at that instant. A full emergency stop IS part of the driving test. Mine was a bit too realistic as I did my emergency stop when the examiner wasn't even watching, but was looking down at his papers. As he wasn't wearing his seat belt he was thrown forward into the windscreen. My reason? - a child ran out into the road in front of the car. I passed the test, and the examiner got a bloody nose..

I should have thought always knowing how much air you have is highly pertinent to an OoA emergency, as in avoiding one happening. Short of the hose to your second stage suddenly blocking or severing and preventing the flow of air, it's hard to think what sort of OoA emergency will suddenly and without warning happen if you have been monitoring your gauges. Almost without exception you'll have SOME warning.

The "distinction" I said I didn't see was between "day to day" driving and a "driving emergency". The point is that until the emergency occurs it IS just regular day-to-day driving.

 

[DaleC]

The point about structured training is that a simple thing like losing the gas from one cylinder, then having to transfer to another and turn it on first is not remotely stressful. As to "lethal" - well, it isn't that either. The stress does certainly exist, but it takes place during the training in a highly controlled environment. Once you've experienced a potentially stressful problem in training and survived it, with help and probably not on the first occasion, then when (not if) it happens for real it's an issue you've experienced before and you can handle it calmly. In fact, for one agency I teach/taught for it is REQUIRED that during training the student experiences real stress, and works through it to a safe conclusion.

Oddly enough, I'm not new to the concept of structured training. Don't assume that, just because someone chooses a different gear configuration than you, it is because they lack something. You don't need to tear someone else down to make your decision valid.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

In the UK driving instruction and the test are (or were) conducted on public roads, not in simulation.

By simulation I meant there isn't actually an object you need to slam on your brakes for. Although I'm pretty sure the part where we did a stop from 60 to 0 was done in a empty parking lot they were using as an obstacle course, not on public roads.

But this definately wasn't on the driving test, it was just a driving school drill for me.

I should have thought always knowing how much air you have is highly pertinent to an OoA emergency, as in avoiding one happening. Short of the hose to your second stage suddenly blocking or severing and preventing the flow of air, it's hard to think what sort of OoA emergency will suddenly and without warning happen if you have been monitoring your gauges. Almost without exception you'll have SOME warning.

I know they're related, but I don't see the relation in context of where you brought this up. Your original point was that there is a serious training deficiency if you don't open your valve underwater in an OOA emergency. Of course this emergency can be avoided by checking your gauge, but what does the frequency someone checks their gauge have to do with remembering to open the valve?